You can explain a miscarriage in plain, compassionate language.
You can list the diagnostic criteria for depression.
None of that means you’ll recognize either one when it’s happening to you.
My guest this week knows that gap firsthand. Danielle Ireland is a licensed therapist, social worker, author, and host of the podcast Don’t Cut Your Own Bangs. Her path to motherhood included months of trying, a miscarriage at 12 weeks, ovulation induction, and a pregnancy that began just as the world shut down in March 2020.
She’s a mental health professional who still didn’t see her own postpartum depression coming. If you’ve ever assumed your training would protect you, this conversation is for you.
In this episode, we get into:
The fears that show up before you even start trying - losing your identity, your career, your sense of self
The microdose of grief that arrives with every period and why no one prepares you for it
Finally getting pregnant and still feeling detached, and what that detachment was telling her
Chronic busyness as numbing (familiar to anyone who has charted through a hard day) and what changed when she stopped bulldozing past her body
Postpartum depression as a mental health professional and the humbling reality of not recognizing it in herself
What it means to let your head, heart, and body all have a seat at the table at the same time
Danielle also recorded a raw, honest solo episode shortly after her miscarriage. Find more of her work at danielleireland.com and on her podcast, Don’t Cut Your Own Bangs.
You were trained to hold space for everyone else’s grief. You’re allowed to need that space too.
Your training is an asset. It is not armor. 💜
With Love and Science,
💜 Dr. Erica
P.S. If you’re carrying this while still showing up for every patient on your schedule, you don’t have to sort through it alone. A Private Fertility Consult is 45 minutes with someone who understands both the data and the grief - and how hard it is to hold them at the same time. Book a consult here. I’d love to connect.
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Erica Bove, MD (00:01)
Hello, my loves, and welcome back to the Love and Science podcast. I have an amazing guest today. We have been planning this for almost a year, I think, at this point. Her name is Danielle Ireland. She is a friend. She is a colleague. She is friends of friends. You know, I when I first heard about Danielle, I was connected through a colleague and I just knew it was it was an instant connection. And like every single time we talk, we have like five million points of
resonance and the work that we're doing is so aligned. And so I will introduce her. Her name is Danielle Ireland. She is a licensed therapist, social worker. She has her own practice under her own name. She's in Indiana. She is also an author, a speaker, a mother after a long infertility journey, which we'll talk about. She's an all-around amazing human who is absolutely brilliant and also leads with her heart. And I think that's the when we talk about love and science, like Danielle is the epitome of love and science.
And so Danielle, I I want you to say a few more words about yourself. and it's just so wonderful to have you here today.
Danielle (01:06)
Thank Erica, thank you for that intro. I feel like you just injected some confidence and just life in into me this morning on this Tuesday post-holiday morning, which is essentially like a it's a it's a Monday. It's just a holiday Monday.
Erica Bove, MD (01:20)
It's a Monday. It's a Monday.
Danielle (01:22)
thank you for that intro. Yeah, so I l I'm so excited to talk to you about myself, my journey, any anything that can be be helpful for the listeners. And I would say
What's what I love speaking to, whether it's with my therapy clients or whether it's with on my own podcast or through public speaking and you know, guest speaking at conferences, is that what I firmly believe is that our emotions are energy in motion and they always have something for us to learn. Understanding how to interpret what they're telling us, and then actually letting that inform the choices we make to shrink the gap from where we are to how we want to feel or where we want to be. That gap, the larger that gap is, I think that is where many of us
Experience expressions of anxiety, depression, burnout, compassion fatigue, caregiver fatigue. not to say that, and again, there's a whole confluence of you know, overlapping Venn diagrams that contribute to those things. But for the people that I work with, which I call them unicorns in pant suits, it's like they're very high-achieving, like very successful on all of the public-facing, you know, resumes, billboards, LinkedIn profiles. It's like they're they're hitting all of
The marks, but then when they go to sleep at the end of the night, there's this unrest, this feeling that something is missing, or shouldn't I be shouldn't this be feeling better? Shouldn't I be feeling more alive? And I just keep slugging along and trying to hope that things will get better if I just stay busy. And that's usually when therapy clients find me or someone stumbles onto my podcast. So I love talking to pretty much any space that will have me about those.
topics in particular but for today and for our purposes I'm so excited to talk about my journey and my fertility experiences and the challenges, the stumbles and the all the beauty that came with that too.
Erica Bove, MD (03:16)
Thank
you so much for sharing. And I also want to mention you do have a fabulous podcast called Don't Cut Your Own Bangs. If you listen to
Danielle (03:21)
Yes.
Erica Bove, MD (03:22)
our episode that we recorded together, when I was a guest, I actually did cut my own bangs when I was seven. So spoiler alert, you
Danielle (03:26)
Ha ha ha ha.
Erica Bove, MD (03:27)
get to listen learn all about that the night before Easter Sunday.
Danielle (03:30)
Yes.
Erica Bove, MD (03:31)
but I think we know when we talk about I talk to my clients all the time about how emotions are energy emotions and and I know you believe firmly that emotions are data as well and we can like sort of take the sting out of it and really fo say, okay, you know, how can I process emotion? What is it here to teach me? How can I move forward?
And I mean, I when you look at the stress levels of people with infertility, like, and you look at it objectively, like it is among it is like more than combat veterans, it's more than astronauts, it's more like objectively speaking, I'm not taking anything away from people who have done really, really hard things. And when we look at the the stress levels comparatively, it's like the highest of the high of stress and anxiety and and fear. Because I think infertility is such a threat. And when we talk about what you just mentioned,
Which is like our emotions and how we actually feel, you know, compared to the way that we want to feel with a family and a home life and maybe, maybe a pregnancy as a start, right? When it's just taking so long. And also I tell my, you know, my my clients are are are are people who are resilient. If I said, you know, hang on, it'll happen in five years, my clients would be like, well, that's a long time, but I went through medical school and residency and I'm good at delayed gratification. But it's so hard because you just don't know. You just don't know.
Know how long the journey's gonna be. You don't long w know what you're gonna have to go through. And and you went through a lot of that as well. And so maybe we could start there by saying, like, you know, like h let's talk about how it feels to not know how it's gonna turn out and to want nothing more deeply than to become a parent.
Danielle (05:05)
Yes. Yes.
Thank you for all of that context. And I what I'm gonna try my best to do is not distance myself from my experience and use languages like
Erica Bove, MD (05:13)
Yes.
Danielle (05:14)
you and we. Like I w I don't want to speak generally about people when I'm actually talking about myself and I'm speaking that out mostly mostly for myself. So
Erica Bove, MD (05:20)
Yes. Yeah. Yes.
Danielle (05:25)
in my experience, when I was in the I'll say the the active decision making.
that was happening before we removed, you know, the physical barriers of you know, contraception. I I remember there was so much noise and chatter in my mind. And I was afraid to say the thing out loud.
I was so afraid to let all of the different thoughts I had exist. I was afraid to allow all the conflicting feelings I was having. allowing them to exist. But there, but they did nonetheless. And a
Erica Bove, MD (06:10)
Mm-hmm.
Danielle (06:11)
lot of where I was at that in that moment in time in 2019, I think is when we actually started, but 2020, I had graduated in 2017 with my master's and was working in private practice as a therapist.
And I I felt in so many ways like my life before that was just kind of hopping from lily pad to lily pad of different creative endeavors. I I was a commercial actor when I was 13, all the way until I was twenty seven and loved doing that. I also taught ballroom dance for a number of years. But when I started to, as I started to get more clarity and direction, little shift after little shift of really how did I want to show up in the world? How did I want to
The thing that was also accompanying me for that ride was this deep fear that I was losing time. And this was my real reckoning with anxiety. It was like the clarity that I was getting of what I really really wanted was sort of like down the end of this tunnel. And I could see the bit of light, but it was as I was trying to move closer to it and sort of scramble towards it, I was also feeling this heavy.
Heavy, heavy weight of, but think about how much time you wasted. Where would you be if you had started sooner? Like just chatter, chatter, chatter. And I knew that I didn't want to even put that pressure on my body to think about trying to get pregnant until I got my clinical licensure, which is two years in and another test later into working as a clinical therapist. So I achieved that.
And then my husband and I were essentially ready. And I say ready so with so much respect for what that version of me, you know, six years ago, seven years ago, what she when she said ready and what that really meant, because she had no fucking clue, no clue what was coming. and pardon my French, I don't know if cursing is allowed on here. okay, great, okay. but I but I think
Erica Bove, MD (08:07)
Mm, mm-mm. Mm-mm. No, no, we swear. We swear on the podcast, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Danielle (08:17)
the the entire time
That we like the first handful of times that we, you know, had intercourse with no protection, thinking that we were gonna be making life. it was a total mix of fear and uncertainty. I was, I think, knowing what I know now, I was so truly, I wasn't grounded.
And by when I say that, what I mean is I was so caught up in my own thinking that I had really abandoned my body. And I had really abandoned my my feeling self in this trying process. I was trying to make sense of it and trying to talk myself into and out of certain things. And it was all happening in my mind. I was like this untethered helium balloon in a way. And the thing that
I didn't expect was for it to take more than two times for it to work. And then I wasn't expecting it to feel like work.
You know, like it's like that
Erica Bove, MD (09:24)
Mm, mhm.
Danielle (09:25)
that Stevie Wonder song, Isn't She Lovely, Made from Love? Like I really thought it was going to be making love and then birthing love. And there was like a part of me that had this really romantic idea. But then there was also this low-level terror that I wasn't letting myself acknowledge, which was, am I going to lose myself? Am I going to lose my humanity, my wholeness, my identity, the career that I've just started to get a grasp on? Am I gonna have to surrender all of that?
What's
expected of me? What do I want to expect of myself? Just all of this, just fear of uncertainty, fear of change, none of which I acknowledged. But my body, my body was keeping the score for me. And also all the while I was working crazy.
hours which I'm sure all of your listeners have their own version of that like there's my level and then I know there's levels above and beyond like I've never done a residency like I've I have clients who have and I am humbled I am humbled by what people in the medical profession experience but all that to say my body was just collecting chips of
burnout and fear and anxiety. And that was being fueled. And I was attempting to, to remedy that myself with caffeine, caffeine and caffeine, and then wine and wine at night. And that
Erica Bove, MD (10:51)
Mm.
Danielle (10:52)
cycle, you know, it it has its own impacts as well. So and I'll I'll pause for a moment to let you interject, but I'm happy to continue chatting from there too.
Erica Bove, MD (11:02)
No,
I I think you highlight so much of the ambivalence that we can have as women. I we have not caught up societally, right? And I think you even talk on other podcasts about, you know, did did you really want this? Was this cultural conditioning? And so finally you're like, Okay, we we want this, I'm ready, that like very loaded word. And then it's like the body keeps the score. It's like, okay, but I still feel imbib imbivalent. And like every single listener here has put a ton into their careers. Just an absolute
Absolute ton. And and there's actually, I mean, I think a lot of us, you know, have to deal with comments from the medical profession that are like, you know, you can't wait a few more years or like this is a terrible time to have a baby, and like, you know, or judgment from colleagues or how am I gonna navigate call schedules and maternity leave and all. So I think that like even if it's not explicitly said, it's a worry of like, what am I getting myself into and can I can I really do this even if I'm tough.
Danielle (12:00)
I even remember I remember
in that time frame too, I had family members who were about four to five years younger than me who were also actively trying. And there's what people say and then what you can understand being said beneath what's actually being said. And so my telling of this, I'm not necessarily telling you it's a direct quote, but I feel it's a pretty confident and accurate interpretation of what was being said without being directly said, which was, gosh, maybe you should have started sooner.
Are you really sure you should be waiting? Like you can be in grad school and you can be pregnant. You can be getting, you know, building all of those hours and taking that exam and being pregnant. We're here to help you. I mean, you're not gonna be doing this alone. And yes, we have in to drop myself out of the time capsule and put myself into today, yes, we have so much help. But I think that the people in our lives who have the best of intentions, I think they over-index and overestimate.
how much and in what way they're going to show up. And I think we, my husband and myself, just had no way of knowing what was actually going to be required of us in the conception, fertility, pregnancy, delivery, and every step since. So it's all every conversation that is had before you're actually in the event, it's all well and good, but it's
It it added pressure. I was feeling the weight and pressure of not providing grandchildren. I was wondering and I think the other thing too, which is uniquely challenging in my experience for women, but I'll also again speak for myself. This unspoken feeling of she is she being selfish here?
You know, she's all taking all of this time for herself to figure out her career. And I'm using air quotes, like, you know, and it's so cute. It's so cute that she's like trying to work this little job as a little helper. Like it was, I was met not by all people, but I will never forget the people who I felt that way around. Like, it's so cute this little hobby you're trying to carve out for yourself before you, you know, become a mommy. And and I'm saying all of that within the context of that.
moment in time. But it that also put so much pressure on me. And so I and we're having this conversation maybe a week after you know the news of Gloria Steinem's passing and Dolly Parton's passing. And I I I it it was I'm I'm finding that my perfectionist tendencies
have all these different faces and all these suits of armor that they wear. There's like
I want to be the good girl and the good student and the good friend, but also does wanting this make me a bad feminist? Does wanting this make me a bad wife? Does wanting this, you know, make me less ambitious? Am I am I less driven in my career if I also want this thing? you know, and and so I realized there's not actually one expression of my perfectionism, but like,
Erica Bove, MD (15:20)
Hm.
Danielle (15:20)
Does
wanting kids mean I'm less professional or less academic? Does wanting to look and feel a certain way after, does that mean that I'm not fully embracing motherhood? You know, it just all, all. It's like I it's like I'm either, I can either succeed by my own standards or fail at everyone else's. And that's a
Erica Bove, MD (15:38)
Right, right, right.
Danielle (15:39)
that's something that I'm still on the journey of figuring out. But to get to back to try the the process of trying, and I say that because that is, that is what it was.
We I think my we were trying for six months. and the thing that I also wasn't I had no way of being prepared for, had no way to to understand until I was in it the the like it was like a microdose of grief every time my period would come.
And and having that feeling, you know, after a really hot, connected night of like, we made a baby, like, yeah, we did it. And then we didn't. It that didn't do it. And my husband and I he he this the process of wanting to get pregnant.
That brought it brought a lot of stuff up for both of us, but I was also felt like I was wearing his his pressure and his questions. Because I knew he didn't want to hurt or offend, but he was also having his own experience that was parallel to mine. It was a different experience, but he wasn't used to wanting something so much that he wasn't in the driver's seat for. And I think that's ultimately what we were both having with the the experience we were both having in different ways, which is
We're so used to having almost essentially like a formulaic like if you want to do this physical feat, if you want to travel to this place, if you want to build this type of business, it's not like there's a guarantee, never is, but there's a pretty a pretty well-trodded path that if you follow the steps, you're probably gonna be able to do. Like you're
Erica Bove, MD (17:18)
Right.
Danielle (17:18)
you're in this reasonable place, but r I never felt so confronted with my own vulnerability.
and my own lack
Erica Bove, MD (17:28)
Mm.
Danielle (17:29)
of control until my body wasn't doing what I thought it was supposed to do or what I really wanted it to do. and I'm also like I was always a really active person. Like my relationship with my body for the most part, and I say healthy in a relative way, but what I understand now
Given all the, I mean, and I probably I've probably painted a pretty clear picture to this point, but from the time I knew I wanted to go back to grad school to the time that I graduated with my clinical license, I pretty much voted my body off the island. She was the meat suit carrying my brain around and getting me from appointment to appointment and class to class and client to client. And sure, I would like fuel her and occasionally take her on a nice walk and maybe fit in a massage. Like I wasn't cruel, but I was not inviting her to the table and asking her like how.
How is she doing and what does she need and what is she carrying? it it really wasn't until this that I even started to really consider my body. And then for about six to seven months of trying and nothing happening, when I went back to my OB,
Then you might be a because you've just listened to my podcast where I talked about it, you might have a better record of some of the the timeline. But I'm pretty sure my OB said that it didn't make sense for us to try any kind of intervert intervention until we got closer to a year. And so we we hit that year, which was hard. and other family members are getting pregnant.
in that time and wanting to be happy for them and also being just so like envious and the sort of the unspoken family race to baby that was happening around us too and and there was this feeling of like wow they got their first
Like they won. And again, that's that's a feeling that I wouldn't let myself acknowledge because it wasn't flattering and it wasn't kind and it wasn't all it wasn't all of the emotions that like, you know, my perfectionist like being a good mother, go or not good woman, you know, that's not what she would say, think or feel. But I was nonetheless. Mm-hmm.
Erica Bove, MD (19:37)
Right, you have to be gracious, so you have to be like happy
for them, which is like, you know, I I don't I don't think it's actually possible from my experience. But d Daniel,
Danielle (19:46)
Mm mm, yeah.
Erica Bove, MD (19:47)
did you have any friends who are getting pregnant during this time? That's one of the things that I I think people struggle with the most is the friendships and the people getting pregnant quicker and sooner and being insensitive.
Danielle (19:58)
Well, so
so I I I wouldn't say that I had any friends my f I wouldn't say that I had friends that were insensitive. I would say that I did have a couple of friends who each of their pregnancies was a surprise in every sense of the word. Now I'm not saying that's the story the journey I would have wanted for myself, because that was disruptive in a different way for them, but
It was it it what it felt like was I looked at a penis, you know, and what what happened? Like that's there that's the how with where I was feeling and what I was experiencing and then what their story was, I it was a little bit of like, How fucking dare you? You know, how fucking
Erica Bove, MD (20:46)
Mm, mhm.
Danielle (20:47)
dare you? But that but yeah, that that they were as they were as gracious as they had the capacity to be.
It it what was harder were the other members of the family. But I also think too, like what I'm what I was bringing into that was my own a com a competition story. And so when we got to the point where we were considering trying to introduce some medical interventions, I think this was either December or January of twenty twenty.
I can't remember. no, no, wait. I think the miscarriage happened before. Yeah, I think my miscarriage happened. Okay, okay,
Erica Bove, MD (21:25)
No, it would have been twenty nineteen, right? You recorded that podcast in February of twenty twenty and
Danielle (21:33)
yes, yes, yes. Okay, I'm remembering this now. So we tried for about seven months when we got pregnant the first time. And I was 12 weeks when, yes, so yes, yes. So we we tried and tried and I found out I found out that I was pregnant.
And it was what really surprised me was that I had I had gotten the thing that I was working so hard for. And even with that positive pregnancy test, there it was an initial burst of and then my gosh. Okay, okay. Like I I was surprised at my own
I don't want to say dread, because it wasn't all that. But if I could do like a watercolor painting, there were like six or seven bold colors all mixed into that experience. Because I th I was simultaneously trying to I in my mind, everything needed to maintain at the same way of operating in my work life. Everything needed to maintain at the same level in my personal life and my marriage. And then
just with this with this pregnancy too. So I was trying to figure out how to not let anything drop with
Erica Bove, MD (22:56)
Mm, mm.
Danielle (22:57)
with this new element. And
Erica Bove, MD (22:59)
Right.
Danielle (23:01)
and that was like going to the ultrasounds. Wow, I haven't thought about this in a while. Going to the ultrasounds was like I mean, hearing the heartbeat and seeing the little gummy bear and like all of those things. And it
I don't know I don't know if on some level and I'm saying this with so much hindsight, but I I don't know if on some level my my emotional body was maybe preparing me, but I felt I felt detached from I was or rather I didn't feel as connected to that particular pregnancy as I imagined I would. And
I we did the genetic panel because I was thirty-four, I think. So I was not considered a geriatric pregnancy, which by the way, let's medical community, can we do better? Can we do better branding for women, please? but I wasn't technically a geriatric pregnancy, but because I was close, we we opted to do the additional tests. So like we knew gender and and you know we were moving through life operating as if we were
You know, we were telling people, 'cause medically speaking everything was on the up and up. And then I had one day of really, really like just heavy bleeding and went to the ER, had an ultrasound, and there was still a heartbeat and they couldn't find anything. They they're the they didn't even tell me that we think you're misc like they didn't say any of that. They just
I'm pretty sure they told me to like go home, stay elevated, and then they gave me things to look out for to come back. And then it was in the middle of the night that night where I experienced what w knowing knowing what labor contractions feel like and the other ways that I've had them, I would say this this was different, but it similar but different. It was weirdly more painful. but I delivered that baby at twelve weeks at home.
And it was excruciatingly painful physically. I in which in a way that I I didn't know because I didn't even my understanding of miscarriage was so there were so many things I didn't know. you kind of hear Well, it's like this Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Erica Bove, MD (25:29)
Nobody talks about it. How would any how would any as doctors I I didn't I didn't I had a miscarriage as my first pregnancy. Nobody
talks about and I was an OBG Wynn resident. Like
nobody talks about these things. And so these conversations are so important. But yeah.
Danielle (25:38)
Yeah, I I yeah. I mean I I
was I was like v getting like vomiting and I mean it was like it was just this whole it was a full body massive huge thing and of course my husband, bless him, you know, he was in shock and it was a total out-of-body experience for him too. I didn't remember doing this, but I remember coming home and my sheets had been cleaned.
And I remember him saying, you did that. You you said you you didn't want to leave and come home seeing it. So you you put them in the wash. And I I don't remember doing that at all. but we when we got to the hospital, I had never appreciated, I had never appreciated nurses so much in my entire life. I swear to God.
God, the nurse that was working in the ER with that night was like an angel sent from heaven just for me. Like she, I'm tearing up thinking about it. I had never been
Erica Bove, MD (26:42)
Yeah, yeah.
Danielle (26:42)
met with that much kindness from a total stranger. And it was just, she held me the way that you would want a mother to hold you. and the it was also my first experience with like.
major medicine. I had never had a surgery, like, you know, laughing gas for having my wisdom teeth removed. So it was a real awakening in so many levels. But like I had experienced morphine. And I tell you, it also gave my clients who have battled addiction such a different appreci like it's such a deep and profound appreciation for what people who were trying to manage pain mentally or emotionally, what they deal like I'll just say from the rest of my life, I do not judge.
Because what I didn't know morphine did, I mean, the second it hit that IV, the physical pain was gone, and so was the emotional pain.
Erica Bove, MD (27:30)
Yes, uh-huh.
Danielle (27:31)
I was, I was blissed. I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't happy, but I was like just I was almost like someone dropped me below the f the emotion. And I was just hovering safely below, and I wasn't holding the pain. And then similarly, and I actually just talked to my husband about this a couple nights ago.
we were talking about some people in our lives who are managing their own, I'll say, their own relationship with substance. And I remember when I even though I delivered that baby, there was still some remaining, I think, placental tissue that needed to be removed with the DNC. And so that was that was really my first surgery, I guess, or any kind of like operation. And I remember
The anesthesiologist gave me a really lovely cocktail in in you know what put me under. And she was like, I'm gonna make sure you feel really good, honey. I'm gonna take really good care of you. I mean, I just was met with grace and grace and grace and grace by every turn. I feel so lucky
Erica Bove, MD (28:30)
Right.
Danielle (28:31)
because I didn't know that that also is not every woman's experience. but I could not have been met with more gracious hands at every single turn. and yeah. No, no,
Erica Bove, MD (28:39)
Yeah. And Danielle go go ahead, keep going. Keep going.
Danielle (28:43)
no. I was just gonna say that like
I had never I don't know what like mood boosting cocktail was in there, but what coming out of anesthesia, I wanted to buy everyone flowers. I wanted I wanted to like send everyone presents. Like I was like, let me get your name. I need to send you flowers. But anyway, go ahead. Sorry, go ahead.
Erica Bove, MD (29:01)
No no and I I do wanna say
I wanna say that the podcast that Danielle recorded after that miscarriage is gold and it's it's I cried, it's it's beautiful and you know, oftentimes I'll have successful clients come back and share their whole stories and you know and that is is such such such a gift and it's also not the messy middle. It is a new messy middle, but it's not that messy middle and I think that what people really crave is to hear from people who are in the midst of that suffering where it hasn't yet worked out yet.
And in in in that episode from
Danielle (29:32)
Yes.
Erica Bove, MD (29:34)
we'll link it in the show notes. Like I have chills just thinking about it, but it's it's so raw and so honest. And you you and I think you were so close to that grace that you'd experienced. you know, so you can really feel and we are so as caregivers, I think we are so often in the giving end of that, right? We we we give, give, give, give, we take care of people, and you as a therapist, Daniel, I'm sure at that point in your life you were mostly on the giving side of that equation, and to be vulnerable to allow
ourselves to receive, especially in these tender moments around fertility and miscarriage, it's sh and you know, loss is just really, really profound.
Yeah.
Danielle (30:10)
Thank you. And that
that episode, I'm pretty sure I speak to this, but it w I I recorded that episode, I believe three or four maybe four months, five months after the loss. And I we weren't we weren't trying yet again. but I I felt it was one, it was healing for me to do it.
But I felt like I wanted to not only honor the life that existed in me for a period of time, but I also wanted to honor all of the lives and hands that held me so so graciously during that time because I was met with I mean
I I don't know, at this point maybe I could even say like a hundred I've been I was met with hundreds of versions of what I had experienced. And not in like a making it about some not not in a take take take way, but in a in almost a generous like opening of the hands of I see you, I see this, I've I've walked in this too. You're not alone. Like in this community, you're not alone.
And so that is what really I think infused and injected me with a desire to share. And but I remember ending that that episode with a resolve and a knowing that I am going to be a mother. I am pretty sure I even said that in the episode. Like I I don't I didn't know the form or the shape that it would take. But I to go back to the loss itself, the other and I a part of this is part of the reason why I talk about it.
as as openly as I can is that all of the noise that I was going into this pregnancy and had with that pregnancy for that period of time, the the noise and the head chatter and who did I need to be and how did I need to show up. for I would say three days maybe four, my my mind was silent. I had never I can't remember
in my from adolescence to my young adult life experiencing a silent mind. And I wasn't numb. It wasn't like a medicated numb.
And it wasn't like a wine fueled numb. It was silent. And in that silence, what I actually did, I felt probably for the first time in a long time, like I really felt. I felt my grief. But I also felt like the the clarity of my own knowing, which was there was no question in my in my mind and heart. There was no question in my heart that I do and did want to be a mother.
I wanted it on my terms in whatever way that that looked for me. But I I was in so many ways, there was relief in the grief because it was clarifying. And I didn't, I didn't, I wouldn't wish that experience on myself to get that clarity, but I certainly like that was like the receipt for that shit storm
Erica Bove, MD (33:22)
Right.
Danielle (33:23)
was I know now beyond a shadow of a doubt that this is truly what I want.
And now I can move forward in whatever shape that ultimately takes with that certainty. And that is something. Like that really was something. And I will it
I've I haven't been had many moments at all with that level of clarity or that like that ego death. But knowing that it's
Erica Bove, MD (33:53)
Mm-hmm.
Danielle (33:54)
possible to me whenever I'm willing to get silent and still enough to get back to that presence is something that I am so profoundly grateful for.
Erica Bove, MD (34:05)
Thank you so much for sharing that and it's just so relatable, you know, and it it
Danielle (34:10)
Mm.
Erica Bove, MD (34:11)
I it's so sometimes you know, I'd love to talk about that too and and I'm wondering too if maybe you can come back for a part two because I think we have so much to talk about.
Danielle (34:21)
Yeah, let's do it.
Erica Bove, MD (34:23)
I think about like w the chronic busyness and the overworking, and like that is a numbing of sorts that keeps us from feeling our feelings. And
Danielle (34:30)
Yes. Yeah.
Erica Bove, MD (34:32)
sometimes life knocks us down to a place where we are very vulnerable and and we can reach for the substance or we can dive right back into work or not take a day off to grieve. but there's an opportunity in it to really ask the big questions of like
How is this changing me? You know, what you know, why did that life exist within me? You know
That intuitive knowing that we talk about, how do we get there? And how can we
Danielle (35:02)
Yeah.
Erica Bove, MD (35:02)
honor that and and believe it as much as we would believe the CBC that we get from our, you know, your your hemoglobin is this? Like, how can we honor that in a way that we say, yes, that is true? And with that knowledge that I know to be true, I'm gonna move forward and try again, even if it's super scary.
Danielle (35:23)
Well, a few things met around the same time that I think gave me the confidence to be bold in the service of myself. And so coming out coming out of that
Erica Bove, MD (35:31)
Let's talk about that. Yeah.
Danielle (35:33)
coming out of that grief, I had also I I had my clinical licensure now, which essentially in my field enabled me to be a free agent if I wanted to be. And so
I didn't recognize until I was maybe four days out 'cause I didn't go back to work. I gave myself I think three to four days before trying to pick back and go back to work. And I remember I remember starting to it was like I was really held in this
really lovely container, but I could still kind of hear like knocks, similar to like hearing people talk on the other side of a window outside. I remember that was how it felt when like my boss would check in on me. Or actually, and what's funny is like she's a they weren't actually bosses. The owners of the practice where I worked, because I was contracted. I wasn't employed. But just like, hey, we need to check on on like well wishes mixed with what could we expect from you soon? Like it was that kind of thing. And and I'm sure like they have their own
They're dealing with their own stuff, so it's no shade, no judgment, but that is what it was. It was we care about you, we're checking on you, mixed with when can you get back to work? And
I was not going to rush this process for anyone. I I was so in, I think in the best possible way, like willing to be rude in a way that I've never been before, because again, like my good girl perfectionist, like I must be sweet, I must be kind, people must like me. And and I had a a different sense of
I will talk to you when I am good and ready. And I I was never that bold, never that bold. And then once I started to reintegrate back into life, I brought my body with me because she was really letting me know what she
what she needed. And I didn't realize until I was in sort of that grief fog that I was burnt to a crisp. Like I I was not I was treating overworking like a muscle I could develop. Like you're gonna you're gonna get you're gonna develop a tolerance. But I realized like that's not that's not true. That's not true. You know, I can get better at masking, I can get better at pretending, I can buy more expensive eye you know concealer, but
But that's not it's no. so I let myself start to take on clients gradually and I started to really what I and how what that looked like in real time was when I would feel the the twinge or the buzz of this is too much, this isn't or this this isn't right for me right now. I wouldn't push past that. I wouldn't bulldoze past what
the information, what what information was in front of me. And that was a totally new way to operate. And subsequently, the hours that I was choosing to work were marked it was markedly different. And after and but my what was really interesting was that working for helping professionals in a helping profession, that was sort of the unspoken agreement is that's what we tell our clients to do, but that's not what we do. You know, because we're busy and
you know, we we have important work to do and and there's so much of I think nonprofit work and helping professions and social work, which is we're gonna give you a seminar on self-care and this is a section of your training, but don't actually apply it in a way that affects how you work because you need to still show up for work. Like don't forget
Erica Bove, MD (39:14)
Great. Great.
Danielle (39:16)
your caseload. And so that that was happening also around the time
This was about six months into that process that then my husband and I started talking to my OBGYN about trying a fertility treatment. And we went through two rounds and you'll know the jargon better than I will, but I took pills to help boost a super egg. And then I had a trigger shot to help us t time the timing of the egg dropping. And within that window, that's where my husband and I knew that when we needed to get busy. What is that called?
Erica Bove, MD (39:50)
th well that's called like probably either ovulation induction, super ovulation with a trigger shot and then
Danielle (39:55)
Sure. That's it.
Erica Bove, MD (39:57)
with timed intercourse, which is like my least e favorite expression ever. Yeah.
Danielle (40:03)
But so that I I I yeah, I went through it. I still don't remember I still barely remember what it was called. But we we went through two rounds of that and then something
Erica Bove, MD (40:11)
Yeah. Like letrasol, clomophene, something like that. Yeah.
Danielle (40:15)
something like that. All I knew is that we were building a super egg and we were gonna help with the timing of that. And all the while too, my husband had been getting himself tested and we were trying to figure out all the things that could be contributing to us
Erica Bove, MD (40:28)
Right, right.
Danielle (40:29)
Speeding the proces up, and then once we
Erica Bove, MD (40:31)
Cause you had
seen a fertility specialist like you said in the other podcast that well, no, no, you said on our conversation together when I re-listened when I was a guest on your podcast that you actually were pregnant at your first infertility
Danielle (40:44)
Yes.
Erica Bove, MD (40:45)
consultation, which is actually not uncommon.
Danielle (40:47)
So this this
will so this is well so yes, you're you are correct.
Erica Bove, MD (40:50)
Yes.
Danielle (40:51)
So this was January and February where I did those other two treatments and then March
Erica Bove, MD (40:56)
Yeah.
Danielle (40:57)
there was this this like weird virus that people were talking about coming from overseas and then two weeks later lockdown and so all elective treatments were cut off. So we weren't we weren't able to continue those treatments during lockdown. And that was
Erica Bove, MD (41:14)
Right, ra that makes total sense, yeah.
Danielle (41:17)
And so then it was essentially two months of waiting until we could get back in. We made an appointment with the fertility specialist. And when I went in, I remember I had the vaginal ultrasound. And he could see, you've ovulated. And he was like, so what we'll just have to do is just track this ovulation cycle. He sent me home with a massive binder that I never opened because it was terrifying. and it was just, it was just too much information. and
I was I will I'll be honest with you too. Like I even in that experience of the first two rounds of treatments that we did and then going into this, I was I had learned some lessons, but I it suddenly it definitely wasn't com it wasn't a complete and final closure for that loop for me because I was I wasn't even sure I really wanted to be doing it, but I wasn't sure if I could trust my body enough. Like I it was
Erica Bove, MD (42:14)
Right.
Danielle (42:15)
And so I was sort of moving forward with this confusion and hope and uncertainty and just wanting an answer. But I think more than anything, what I was also wanting, I was afraid of hearing what could have been wrong with my body. And and then I was but I was also I I wanted a sense of like, can I just shrink the gap of this uncertainty? Cause what I continually felt like I was hearing was so there's all these things that we can do, which increases your chances by like this much percent.
Like fifteen percent, five
Erica Bove, MD (42:43)
Right, right.
Danielle (42:44)
percent, twenty percent. You are within twenty percent of the population that receives fertility support, that there's no known medical reason why you need it. And I was
Erica Bove, MD (42:51)
Right.
Danielle (42:52)
like, I what it what what are you talking about? I don't e and so I I I wanted to know if there was a problem so that I could name it, but I also didn't want to know because I didn't want there to be anything and it was
Erica Bove, MD (43:02)
Right, and I'm sure somewhere
within you you were thinking, and I don't wanna have to try for another eight months, like I want some augmentation here, can we speed up this process? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Danielle (43:11)
Yes, yes, that was exactly it. Well, and also
because I I was in the year of becoming a geriatric pregnancy, right? Because the myth the mist is so so all all Yeah, exactly. So
Erica Bove, MD (43:18)
Ray, of course, of course. Like a light switch goes off we all know as once you turn thirty five.
Danielle (43:27)
so that I was getting more bold and confident in my life, but I was still carrying around a lot of fear as well. And it was
Erica Bove, MD (43:36)
Yeah. 'Cause I think trying after
a miscarriage is something that nobody talks about either. So yeah.
Danielle (43:40)
Yeah.
Yes. And so when he basically said, Call me back and schedule another appointment when your period starts up again because that will determine this cycle of whatever we're gonna do. And I just kept waiting for the period and the period didn't come. And and that was the beginning of my second chapter with my daughter. So yeah.
Erica Bove, MD (44:03)
Yeah, yeah, which is so beautiful. What what was that
like for you? Like what do you remember about that time, like after the miscarriage, getting the courage to try again?
Danielle (44:12)
Yeah,
so I remember I remember intimacy with my husband after the miscarriage was so emotional. And I didn't because it was so loaded with we had we had we hadn't felt connected. We were having such different experiences emotionally and physically. and then I was really wanting connection, but that connection was so loaded by the very thing that I had caused me so much pain.
And so I wasn't I I remember I think I don't remember how many weeks after the miscarriage before we we connected in that way, but I I do remember like weeping for about 30 minutes after. and that so that was cause it was I think that was confirmation in a different way of like, it that really happened. Like we're we're we're kinda we're back.
We're back to the drawing board. and and also I think I was feeling in my grief because I was and feeling bold enough to take care of myself, come what may, at the expense of other things around me, I recognized I had also
I think I felt guilty for not being more connected with him. and it I was and I was also so immensely grateful for him too. It was such a it was a it was a wild time. It was a wild time. Mm-hmm.
Erica Bove, MD (45:48)
It's so wild. It's tender. I mean,
and like you actually did have surgery. You had a DNC, but I think we don't think about these insults and these ups and downs. Like, you know, if somebody has their ankle fixed, you're like, Okay, well stay off your ankle, use your crutches, make sure you sleep more, you're gonna like take time off work. But when these sorts of things happen, we d we forget that we're healing, like emotionally and physically. And so thank you so much for sharing that. I think it's a very common
Danielle (46:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Erica Bove, MD (46:14)
experience and I think it takes people by surprise to I mean it's taken me by surprise before.
As well.
Yeah.
Danielle (46:19)
Well, and I'll s again I
again I wanna be really cautious to not try to position myself as a therapist and separate myself from my experience.
Erica Bove, MD (46:26)
Yeah.
Danielle (46:27)
But I'll say one of the things that I can look back on and say was instrumental for my healing and what has allowed me like I don't have to explain as much with
Every appointment when I was pregnant the first time, going to the emergency room both times, in every treatment that I had after, I asked my husband to come and be a witness with me for all of that. I didn't do any of that privately, which was complete I wanna say that is also completely my choice, my experience, but
Erica Bove, MD (47:00)
Right.
Danielle (47:01)
having having somebody be a steady and consistent witness through that helped help
I needed somebody outside of me to sort of hold the record with me of of all of that. because sometimes you are so in it. And also I I think I I didn't recognize like I'd never experienced shock before, like I did, you know, the the evening that it happened. And and so I didn't I needed to be witnessed. And I'm realizing too that so much of the healing that I do offer, I think one of the greatest
things that I offer of value to my clients and in my work is being a witness and not asking anything of someone other than just witnessing what they're experiencing. And so I really wanted a witness. And I'm I'm grateful for that now.
Erica Bove, MD (47:53)
No, absolutely. And then moving forward did that shift or no?
Danielle (47:57)
Which part?
Erica Bove, MD (47:58)
like ne like the witness. Like in the beginning you had with the infertility and the miscarriage, he was your witness and then did that stay the same or did that change over time?
Danielle (48:04)
Yeah. Well yeah. Like I mean,
when I got pregnant I was it w yeah, that that carried forward. Like if I have to go to a medical appointment, you're gonna come. I don't care how inconvenient it is. And like because both of my children that I've had since, you know, geriactor pregnancies, the thing I learned to love about it, d like the positive spin I put on it was I just get more visits with the babe. So I get more ult I get more I get more ultrasounds, I get more heart I get
Erica Bove, MD (48:29)
Yeah.
Danielle (48:32)
more scans, I get I get
I get more in I get to get engaged with it more. But every
Erica Bove, MD (48:36)
Yeah.
Danielle (48:37)
single time I was like, listen, Bub, if I gotta carry it, you're coming. You're coming.
Erica Bove, MD (48:40)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's right.
Danielle (48:42)
there may have been one appointment that like maybe he I don't even think so. I I was gonna say maybe there was one appointment that my mom came to, but I think that that was the DNC. I think my mom wanted to be there for me for the DNC, but he was there too. and
Erica Bove, MD (48:55)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Danielle (48:57)
yeah, so no, that that was I wanted the experience I was having.
to be honored and I didn't I think that so much of the burden that women carry is silent suffering. And so I and I didn't I didn't necessarily need to categorize everything I was experienced as suffering, but I didn't want to be silent and I didn't want to I didn't want it to be invisible labor. So it's like I'm gonna I'm
Erica Bove, MD (49:22)
Right, of course.
Danielle (49:24)
gonna do this and you're gonna see it, babe. Yeah. Yeah.
Erica Bove, MD (49:29)
Yeah, no no no, thank you for sharing that. And I think
this is this could be a whole other podcast, but like the role of men in the process, the the lack of resources for men and and figuring out, you know, how men how they can be supported as well as being the supporter, I think it's a whole other thing. But I think
be you were in touch with what you needed, which I think is part of that when you said your ener your emotional body, your emo your emotions, which are energy and motion, tuning into what you need in real time, I think it's super important because if we don't let people know that we need something, again that goes against that good girl conditioning. Like we're not supposed to need anything from anybody ever. But when we can say like this is what I need, then we give people the opportunity to show up for us.
Danielle (50:12)
Well it too and I think that a big part of what I have worked on in my personal life, which is in a big way become what I love talking to other people about, is that clarifying my needs now gives me the opportunity to show up for them and communicating what I need is not a command.
I actually have no power over anyone else, but that is information. That is decision-making power that I have. If I tell you, I'm this is what I'm experiencing, this is what I'm feeling, this is how your behavior is impacting me, or this is how you have the power to influence my experience. And then how somebody shows up and responds to that, that is information. And I think that that's what moves us closer to safety and intimacy. And I think that's also come what drive us apart is that if you were continually and consistently
Pretending not to know or pretending not to notice or just flat out rejecting what somebody is is communicating. It's not necessarily a guarantee, like a really like sassy, snappy country song, like get out of there, girl, but it it's information. It's information. And I and I didn't, and I and I want to be clear too that like I don't know if if my husband David would have
would have known to come to every appointment. But I think one of the one of the I'll I don't want to call it a gift, but a silver lining because he was with me, because I know that there are women who have miscarried at work. Like it comes it comes in all different f places, faces, spaces in life. because I was home, because he was with me, because he witnessed all of that.
I think it also helped him. I don't think he had ever felt so vulnerable as a partner. I don't think it had occurred to him everything like what could be possible with pregnancy and delivery for his wife. I I I think that he that was such an out-of-body experience for him to be the witnesser of. Like I yes, I had my experience, but it that was a lot for him too. And I think because we went through that together.
He it it it just felt like less of a question when I wanted him to come with me to the appointments. It's it it's just
Erica Bove, MD (52:32)
Rates, right?
Danielle (52:33)
he he was like, I understand, like there's I ha
I I'll never forget something he said. and this was actually after our daughter was born. She was maybe three months old, and we were in a couples therapy session, and we were probably like pissy with each other about some shit, like not cleaning a bottle or not putting laundry away or something stupid. But we were both exhausted and stressed, and and I was also experiencing postpartum, which I didn't know fully at the time, which was also humbling. It's like, how could I be a mental health professional and not know? But I didn't. And I remember
Erica Bove, MD (53:03)
Right.
Danielle (53:04)
nursing my daughter, and I'm rocking her in the office, and I remember.
David saying something in the room after I had sort of I I didn't even remember that I said it, but I said, I'm drowning, like I'm drowning. And he said, I didn't realize that I've been fighting so hard to give myself credit, but the bar has been so low for me. And I think that that's a dynamic that when people are both wanting to be seen for what they value or what or what they're contributing, that
He can want to feel appreciated and then also recognize God the the standard of expectation for what you're going through and what I'm going through are it's far apart. And I think me finding my voice in him
Sitting with the truth of that without getting defensive? Like that's sort of been our how we're meeting each other still in so many ways. Like, how can I communicate my needs without resenting you? Without like, how can I retract the clause and speak to the center of the heart of what it is I'm experiencing in need without making you a a villain in this story? And then how do you receive that and hear that without abandoning yourself or feeling ashamed?
And also hear the truth in that and that meeting each other, I think, as men and women and husbands and fathers, like that's that's been a journey.
Erica Bove, MD (54:30)
Hundred percent. Again, another thing we could talk about for a full hour. Okay,
Danielle (54:33)
Yeah.
Erica Bove, MD (54:36)
my friend. We need to close, as sad as that makes me feel.
Danielle (54:39)
Okay.
Erica Bove, MD (54:42)
speaking of emotions. Is there anything else you want our listeners to hear from you about your experience with the messy middle, of your experience of infertility, miscarriage, finally having a family af a after a lot a big journey, which is it's new messy middle, of course, you know, but is there anything else that you feel
needs to be said today for this to be complete.
Danielle (55:05)
I'll say the my growth edge today feels just like a tightening of the spiral of what I was probably going through back then and just didn't have the context for yet, which is that my like my head and my heart and my body, I treat it as separate. There was like a time and space in my day for this, a time and space in my day for this, a time and space in my day for that. And I am feeling
consistently better in every area of my life that matters to me when I allow all of those parts of me to have a seat at the table at the same time. And that I know is kind of a broad stroke, but I
Like, this is my professional hat, this is when I take care of my body, this is when I honor my feelings. Like I was really good at being regimented and batch scheduling. Like, this is when I journal, this is when I meditate. But I'll say that allowing all of the information of all of those parts of me to come with me and as much as possible, that.
That allows that allows me to the point of influence I have to really carving out life in a way that feels meaningful and good to me is that feels like a ripple effect that everything we've just talked about so far has l has led me to. And I'm still I'm still in the process of really unpacking and and learning that in a deeper way, but I'll never be tired of talking about it.
I'll come and do as many podcasts as you want me to. And I just am so grateful for you for sharing this space with me, letting me talk as much as I did. Cause you are brilliant and wonderful too. And I don't feel like you had enough time to talk. And I'm sure your listeners are like, Where's Erica? That's who we're here to hear. But well the thing, yeah.
Erica Bove, MD (57:05)
No, no, this is about you today, Danielle. This is about you. And and us in a community
of women who continue to support each other through life seasons and just the the beauty and the connection and the sharing. Thank you.
Danielle (57:18)
Thank you.
Erica Bove, MD (57:19)
Thank you. Okay, we'll do this again. And to my listeners, you know how much I love you. Until the next time.
