Time for Another Birthday? Seeing Ourselves with Our Hearts with Dr. Jessie Mahoney

With the growth of the Love and Science community, it feels like we are always navigating a birthday in the group. This can be fraught with many complexities-- grief for where we thought we would be by now, cognitive dissonance of people wanting to celebrate us when we feel sad and angry, and also the sheer fact that our ovaries are getting older. 

I've known Dr. Jessie Mahoney for a long time, and in fact we are birthday twins. July is our birthday month. We decided to team up and share our wisdom about birthdays so that we, as a community, can try on a different perspective. I look to her for wisdom and guidance, and I'm sure you will feel the depth of her presence when you listen.

We discuss the following:

• seeing ourselves with our hearts as our primary strategy for approaching our next birthday with grace and self compassion 

• how to acknowledge that birthdays usually don't meet our expectations

• how to see birthdays as a neutral marker and not automatically a negative marker

• how to honor the knowledge and wisdom of the prior year and our lives thus far

• how to look ahead at future ages/birthdays and borrow advice from the future version of ourselves 

Guest Details: 

Dr. Jessie Mahoney is a graduate of Dartmouth College and UCSF Medical School. She is also a board-certified Pediatrician, physician wellness expert, triple-certified physician coach, and founder of Pause & Presence. Her mission is to help people who are “successful on the surface yet struggling underneath” find relief, feel better, and discover a more aligned path forward.

www.jessiemahoneymd.com

As always, please keep in mind that this is my perspective and nothing in this podcast is medical advice.

If you found this conversation valuable, book a consult call with me using this link:

https://calendly.com/loveandsciencefertility/discovery-call

Also, be sure to check out our website: loveandsciencefertility.com

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Please don’t let infertility have the final word. We are here to take the burden from you so that you can achieve your goal of building your family with confidence and compassion. I’m rooting for you always.

In Gratitude,

Dr. Erica Bove

Transcript:

- Hello, my loves.

I am bursting with excitement to have an honored guest today.

Her name is Dr. Jessie Mahoney.

She is a mentor, she is a friend, she is a coach, she's a physician coach, which you know how much I adore, physician coaches.

She has changed my life in many, many ways.

And the reason she's on our podcast this week is because we are actually birthday twins.

Born in different years, that doesn't matter, but when I found that out, I was sort of deciding whether I wanted to do her retreat or not, and I found out we were actually birthday twins and I was like, "Okay, done deal, we're doing this." And that was a few years ago, 'cause now I've gone on two of her retreats.

So Dr. Jessie Mahoney is a pediatrician by training who has also done multiple coaching certifications.

She is the CEO and founder of Paws and Presence, where she helps women physicians to thrive and not merely survive.

She is a speaker, she is an author, she hosts retreats at her beautiful new retreat center in California.

She is just a wealth of information and wisdom, and I'm so honored she's here today.

Welcome, Dr. Jessie, it's so great to have you.

- It is so awesome to see you and be here, have fun.

- Yay.

And also, many of you who are in my world know that I was so grateful to go to my second retreat of Dr. Jessie's just a few weeks ago.

And so a lot of the concepts that I learned, relearned, unlearned at that retreat are very, very fresh in my consciousness.

So if it would serve people, I would love to share some of my perspective and wisdom from that time, because I think it can help us all the benefits of pausing and being present and being in the moment.

I think it just helps me to be a more present version of myself, which I think that benefits the world, which is a wonderful thing.

So just in terms of starting the conversation, I thought it would be fun to talk about how we are each approaching our birthdays this year.

So what do you think?

Your birthday, I mean, as of the day of the recording, our birthdays are in a couple of weeks.

How are you feeling, Jessie?

What do you think?

- I am feeling pretty good.

The number of my birthday feels like a big number.

And it's for me kind of the second half of a kind of big number decade.

If I'm thinking about it that way, and I'm fine with it.

I'm not in a space in my life that feeling old is a problem.

It's sort of like, oh, what's next?

And so approaching it with, I would say much more kindness and softness.

And when I was thinking about what we were gonna talk about as our birthday twins and our birthdays, what came to mind is this kind of quote/mantra that I've been sharing a lot.

And we might've talked about it at the retreat, which is replacing expectations with intentions, with intention, replacing expectation with intention.

And I used to have tons of expectations about birthdays and what they should look like.

And by next year, I will have done X, Y, or Z, maybe what your family should do or not do, and for your birthday or how one should feel on their birthday or any kinds of things like that.

And I felt like all those expectations always left me feeling disappointed.

And while maybe they pushed me to do things, I'm not a human who needs pushing to do things actually.

In fact, I do too many things.

So I shouldn't say too many, that's judgy.

I do a lot of things and I enjoy it, but that's not my problem.

That's not my big spot.

And so for me to sort of replace the idea of the expectation of a birthday or a new year or a new second half of a decade, like is really more about how I wanna approach it and what's possible and what's ahead, rather than that old sort of disappointment of, oh, I haven't done this yet, or I said I was gonna do this in the last year and I didn't, I better get it done in the last two weeks.

So I think that's really how I'm approaching it this year.

Some of the new things I've done just in the last few years about my birthday is take ownership for it and just plan out a day that feels fun to me.

And, or I know you've come on retreats for your birthday, which I love, but to try to think about, well, what do I wanna do?

What would be fun for me?

And not worry so much about typical birthday things.

Like maybe I always, people always say, oh, do you wanna go to dinner?

I'm like, no, maybe, maybe not.

Like maybe actually I don't wanna do anything or maybe I wanna go on a hike or, and so just being kind of thoughtful, it doesn't have to be the big trip or the big thing.

Thinking about what really makes me happy in a day and letting that be part of the day.

- That's right.

- So I think that's really how I'm approaching it much more with sort of softness.

And I would say acceptance, but I think acceptance sounds sometimes low bar.

And I mean it in the most happy, peaceful, loving way that like, oh, every year on a certain day in July, you and I celebrate being a year older.

It happens to be the day we showed up in this world.

And so it's sort of like a marker, a chance to just think or integrate or decide who you are, who you'd like to be, and maybe more of.

Because I think we're so focused on goals.

My birthday, by this date, I should have done X, Y, or Z.

- Right, right. - Or I should have, I don't know, created, I should have written my book by this age, which as you know, I haven't, right?

And I'm like, oh no, I shouldn't have because I haven't.

So maybe it'll be next year or maybe it'll be before my next big decade.

I don't know, or maybe it won't be.

Like, so it's a lot of this like softness and I think the energy that's coming through what I'm saying is kindness.

- And honoring yourself and what you have done and where you're going instead of what you haven't done.

- Yes, I love that.

Like what have I done?

What have I done?

I love, we just did for the Healing Medicine podcast done mid-year episode and it was sort of what went well.

What did I do well this year?

What went well this year?

What's working well?

I'd love to use this as well.

- Yes, yes, yes.

And I think that pertains to the fertility journey as well 'cause I think, you know, I love how you said it's a marker.

I think so many of my clients and my patients, they look at this day as like, oh, another year when I haven't yet met my goal.

I'm not pregnant yet or I had a miscarriage and you know, I'm behind where I even was last year at this time.

And I think one thing I love to help people with is look and say, okay, very, very objectively, where are you today compared to where you were a year ago?

You know, maybe you have more embryos in the freezer.

Maybe you have had a surgery and now you're recovering.

Maybe you now have new information about your diagnosis that is informing your treatment plan.

Like nobody is moving backwards ever.

And so I think we can just take the judgment out of it and say, yes, it is a marker.

Let's be very objective about, you know, what has happened, what I've learned.

You know, I love the question, what do I know today that I didn't know a year ago?

Because it does allow for that.

Like, oh, I'm actually an evolving, wiser person of myself and life is gonna life.

Like it's gonna take different forms for different seasons of our life.

And for many of my people, it's infertility, which is not easy.

But I think that, you know, just that distance between where we hoped we would be and where we are today, we can get so stuck in that gap.

And when we can, you know, just like you said, be kind and gentle with ourselves and honor our experience and honor how much we are doing for the journey and even things outside of fertility too, 'cause we can get so narrow.

I think, I love what you said about that.

'Cause I think that will also help people be kind to themselves.

- I love that we're always a year wiser.

- Yes, we are always a year wiser.

- A year is wiser.

- That's right.

- We say these words older, but it's, we're a year more experienced, a year wiser.

- That's right, that's right.

- You know, it's so interesting.

I heard this comment recently, and I'm probably not gonna get the quote right, but I just really loved it.

It's like, so I'm gonna be 56.

And the comment was, if someone died at 55, and they didn't know how old it was, I just saw it randomly.

We would say they died young, but when they say they're 55, about to turn 56, they think they're old.

- Right.

- It's the exact same number.

And so it's your perspective on that.

And I was like, oh yeah, like if I died now, I would be young.

But actually, you know, so I'm not old, 'cause I'm young, I'm both, right?

And so it's, I love sort of countering it in a different, it's not a number thing.

And yes, you're right, that biologically, and I think this is where it's really a sticking point for doctors, right?

We know ourselves are older.

We know those telomeres are changing length and all of those things, right?

And- - And ovarian aging, right?

- Yes, ovarian aging. - Ovarian aging is real.

Yeah.

- I know, I love it when you go into the- - Yeah, the biology.

- The gynecologic science, you just light up, okay?

But yes, our ovaries are older.

And you know, you are still wiser, and you're just, I love this idea of evolving.

And I will say actually, since we're talking GYN science, two years ago, I had a hysterectomy, I had my ovaries taken out.

And there was a moment there of like, whoa, like, I mean, I clearly wasn't gonna have any more kids in my mid fifties, but I had used them for a lot of things.

And we have a lot of attachment to that part of ourselves.

And while it was very helpful to solve a lot of other problems, it definitely was this sort of thought defining moment.

And I did it literally a week before my birthday.

Not on purpose, just happened that way.

But I think to really think so many of us as women define the fertility journey and our female organs as this, what they mean to us.

And so kind of recognizing, to me there's a whole life after that too.

And a whole life, you know, there's all these different seasons and segments.

And it can look very different for all of us.

And I don't think for anybody it looks the way we thought it would.

- No, no, no, no.

I'm sure that is not your life plan to have a hysterectomy right before your birthday.

But it's very final.

And I think, you know, all this news that we get about the fertility journey and the ups and the downs and the delays and everything, I think in the fertility world, everything takes longer than we think it should.

You know, we get the results of the embryos and then the clinic is closed and their lab is undergoing QA.

And so then there's another month.

And I think there's just this very palpable sense of time passing, which I think the birthday is just augment the awareness of that in a very sad way.

And I, you know, one thing I love to help people with is to say, you know, we can honor all the feelings at once.

Right?

We can be both aware that we are wiser and grateful for that knowledge.

We can also be sad that whatever we were hoping would happen by now hasn't happened.

You know, we can be enraged that our bodies are cooperating and doing what we want them to do.

You know, we can have all the feelings at once.

And I think, you know, I know you do this in your work.

And I do in mine too is like, how can we get more and more comfortable with pausing, truly feeling those feelings and let them go?

Because if we don't let them go, they're going to eat us alive and prevent us from experiencing any joy or any lightness or any anything that we could let in because we'll be so gripped by all these emotions.

So I think that, you know, as I approached my 42nd birthday, which, you know, in a very aging, I mean, that is really getting up there, you know, just sort of from a very objective standpoint.

I have lots of thoughts about that.

But I do think that I am much more looking at the wisdom that I've learned this year, the growth, the relationships that I have improved.

I'm looking at how I can see myself in a kinder way.

You know, we talked about it at the retreat, seeing what the heart, even yesterday, I found a book that might actually have my very good friend her birthday is just a few days before ours.

And so I was sending off my little care package birthday present for her.

And the whole thing was like, how can we see with our hearts?

I approached this, it's a children's book actually, but you know, full of wisdom.

I purchased it months and months and months ago.

So for me, this theme of like seeing ourselves, seeing other people with the heart, seeing situations with the heart, that keeps coming up for me.

And so even though in some ways I feel like I'm doing less and I can judge myself for that, I think I'm recognizing I'm becoming a softer version of myself who is then better able to be into relationships with other people and really saying yes to the things I need to say yes to and I'm passionate about, which also means saying no to other things, which I might've said yes to in the past and felt like a more productive version of myself.

- Well, and seeing with the heart, I have to say first of all, just the book that it comes from, which is a children's book, is actually called "Happy Birthday to the World." And I hadn't even thought of that as that's the topic of this podcast.

I don't know if you knew that, but it's the author's note and the book is literally called "Happy Birthday to the World." And it's a book by Rachel Naomi Remen who is a wise and very old.

I think we would all agree 'cause she's almost 90.

Physician who really believes that we move through the world seeing with the heart.

And so it's really interesting.

And the actual book is about seeing the light in everyone and everything.

And that's just the summary of it.

And it's the idea that if we see with our heart, it's not this Pollyanna positive thing, but that you see the sparkles of light that are there.

And you see the lights that's there, not just the darkness.

And this idea that every human and every experience has some bit of light in it.

And so it's this really beautiful book and it's about a story that her grandfather told her, but it just couldn't be more certain to its title.

And I'm thinking that that is really what you're talking about and sort of what came to you from the retreat was the scene from the heart.

And that's seeing your birthday from the heart and from this place of kindness and from a place of love.

And she talks about in that author's note, it allows you to see things in color rather than black and white.

And to see the acorn as a one day mighty oak tree and it's really the perfect way to approach your birthday, which is not what the book is really about at all, but it were you to kind of see it that way and see this passage of time that way.

It's really just a much lighter, more spacious way of letting go.

I think so often in coaching and we try to say, okay, I'm just not gonna think that anymore.

I'm not gonna feel that anymore.

Or that in order to let go of like the anger, we just have to decide not to be angry anymore.

And when you mentioned that, just sort of feeling it, that's really what seeing with your heart is about is like your heart would actually gets to be angry.

And I often will talk about like anger is actually alchemy.

Like it moves things and shifts things.

So it's not a bad thing, but if you stuff it down, it doesn't alchemize anything.

It just makes you, I don't know, wanna throw up or it's like that pressure, you just can't solve it.

And so that's the idea of letting things move.

And again, not in a like, you have to get to the alchemy way and find out the end of the story, but just recognizing that that's what it does.

Another word I'm really loving right now is this word marinating.

And like when you let the anger sit in there and do its thing, there's literally a chemical process, like in food when you marinate things.

- That's so fascinating.

- And that's true for you too.

- Yeah, well, it's interesting 'cause I just read, reread, I had a therapy appointment yesterday.

So I was rereading my notebook from my, I journaled just so copiously on this retreat.

And I wanted to sort of share with her 'cause it was my first meeting with her since the retreat, like what I have learned and my reflections and everything.

Yeah, no, I mean, it really was about looking at the various situations in my life, figuring out how to give them the appropriate amount of energy and not more than they need, figuring out what's mine to carry and what's not mine to carry, right?

I think a lot of us have this over responsibility.

So those two kind of go hand in hand and really seeing myself with the heart, right?

Seeing myself with compassion and tenderness.

And I don't think the heart judges, I think the mind judges, but I don't think the heart judges.

And so it's just that tenderness and that compassion.

And it makes sense that I am who I am on this day.

And I think it's interesting.

I looked at some of the words I selected, growth, respect, my third one, I wanna go in order.

(laughs)

I know my fourth one was kindness and my fifth one was creativity.

And we'll find the third one somewhere, not popping out in this moment.

But it was just, it was so interesting to look, change, change.

It was so interesting for me, 'cause I feel that now as I am reintegrated in the world, like the world of the problems and the conflicts and all the things of which there are many, it's not like your problems go away from going on a retreat, but if you can come back and see them with a fresh perspective, with a more self compassionate perspective, with a set of boundaries, like I'm gonna spend this much time on this and no more because I have other more important things in my life to attend to.

That's because then I don't get resentful that something is stealing what it doesn't need to steal.

And so, I think just looking at the questions, like what does success look like going forward?

That was really helpful to me.

What would my highest, wisest, happiest, healthiest self, how would that person see?

And as I think about this aging process, yes, the fact is that our ovaries are getting older.

Yes, objectively, pregnancy success chance get lower with every advancing it.

We understand this.

And yet we have this, almost like a wise crone who is inside of us, who's pulling us forward.

And so, if I can look at my life now with the perspective of that beautiful woman who has gray hair, who wears purple, who's like this beaming version of wisdom and sanity and groundedness, what would she tell me today about the choices I'm making and the energy I'm bringing to my days?

And what would that look like?

Because I am the age I am today, but hopefully I am that 89 year old self and time is a construct.

And so what would she say to me?

And that was, you know, some of those concepts became more clear.

- That one I love because actually birthdays for me, like this birthday, I actually jumped to next birthday, not from like an accomplishment point of view, but like, oh, next year on my birthday, what will I wish I'd done this year?

And for me that just opens up all this fun stuff.

And, you know, it might be, well, I wish I'd done more of or less of, and presumably that me next year is happier, healthier, wiser, and she may or may not be, but that's not the point.

The point is if she were, what would she recommend?

'Cause the only way to get to her is to assume that that's who I will be.

- That's exactly it.

And I think we can also take that perspective with the fertility journey too.

Like I believe that every single person who is on the pathway is there for a reason that every single person deserves to be a parent.

Does not always look like the strong plan A, but that's why we do this with a guide and community and really figure out the value space decisions and what's best.

So, you know, just say it in here, you know, this process has not yet come to fruition.

What would that person say?

Would they say, oh, you know, maybe I could have gotten that guide sooner, that, you know, maybe I could have had somebody, you know, guiding me through the path.

Maybe I could have, you know, decided to go on that trip instead of just pushing through with the fertility, you know, back to back to back cycles, you know, or if it does work out, you know, when it does work out, what would that person look back and say, oh, if I only could have done it with a lighter spirit, if it only hadn't stolen so much of my joy and my energy, like I think it is, it is helpful to look into the future and say, what would that future version of myself want for me in this moment?

And how can I align my intention and make choices today?

That's coaching is, you know, making our actions.

- Well, I love that idea of it turned out okay.

- Yeah.

- Which I think probably in the fertility journey, no baby means not okay, but okay is literally like you've survived.

You're still here and it might look like what you had thought you wanted, but it looks like whatever it is.

And so it's like, well, I'm okay at age 60 and I'm looking back now at this five year journey or maybe it's a 10 year journey or maybe it's longer.

And it's like, how will I wish I had moved through that?

And it's not that, I think that regret is optional and that sort of preventive care for regret, but you can also just opt out of regret.

You can look back and say like, oh, I can't believe I spent all this energy and negative energy worrying and stressing when it either was gonna make a difference or wasn't.

'Cause I do think baby or no baby, and I don't mean that to sound callous, most of us wouldn't look back and say, like I wish I had worried more, stressed more, been more miserable, right?

- Right, right, right, right.

- And that's not to gaslight yourself in anyway.

It's actually from a kind space of like, oh, I always like to say like, if it turns out great, what will you wish you had done?

And if it turns out terribly, what will you wish you were done?

I do this around breast cancer because my mom had breast cancer at 60 and both of her sisters have had breast cancer at some point.

So I'm like, oh, you know, for me, this is probably gonna happen at some point.

It's a matter of being vigilant.

As far as I know, we don't have any genetic stuff, but my thought is like, well, when I get breast cancer, whatever age that is, will I wish I'd been sitting here worrying about it now?

No, well, I wish I got my mammogram, yes.

- Yes, right. - I wish, you know, so it can kind of guide you in that way.

Like, what will you wish you had done?

And if I never get it, what will I wish I had done?

I'll still wish I had my mammograms and I'll keep this ahead and worried, right?

- That's a great example, yeah.

- I think just playing off of it a little bit and recognizing that that piece is pretty much out of my control.

And I think a lot of the fertility pieces out of your control, the choices you make along the way, you do what you can.

- Totally.

- And recognizing like, what will you and you, only you wish you had done?

'Cause some people might wish that they had taken a year off and, you know, relaxed and worked on this.

And some people might wish they hadn't.

I think in medicine, we think there's a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it, a right way to do your business, a right way to exercise, a right way to eat.

But for each of us, we get to choose.

- That's right, I think that's so powerful.

And so it's an invitation to play around with it and to bring yourself even a year into the future and look at the different scenarios and how you would want to be today and then to start making choices that align with that.

- You know, it's funny as I'm thinking about this birthday thing, it's not just an invitation for a year, like it's an invitation 10 years from now.

What will I wish?

- Yes, yes, yes.

- Pick your numbers.

And I actually love to play with all of them.

My very first coach that I worked with, and I can still see the worksheet in my head that I filled out.

- Yeah.

- And it had like, you know, in three months, you know, one year, five years.

And what I put next to them, interestingly, was the age I would be at that point.

Like, so it would be August or it would be 2025 probably, 'cause this was eight or 10 years ago.

- Right.

- And I forget how many years you added, but I was like, oh, I'll be seven, I'm a rounder.

So I'll be 75, that's what this is asking about.

And it was a really beautiful thing to think about, well, what will 75 year old mean?

And I do feel like birthdays can get you thinking that way.

So, you know, if you're in your thirties, what will the 40 year old mean?

What will I wish her life looked like?

What's gonna be important to her?

And asking her what you would do now, but I think both.

'Cause it can give you that long timeline.

So rather than like, here we are on this date in 2025, and this is, you know, all these things have never happened.

It's like, well, actually a birthday is a reflection of like, I've had 55 birthdays already, that's pretty cool.

I don't know how many more I'll get, but I have this thought that for me, birthdays inspire a long timeline.

And I'm thinking seeing what the heart would include all of them. - Yes, yes it would.

- How many there are.

- Yeah, that's amazing.

As you mentioned that, I actually had a coach who asked me to do an exercise several years ago.

We're talking maybe 2018.

So it'd be fun to go back and look, but to write our obituary, I mean, let's just be frank here.

Like birthdays do remind us that we're gonna die at some point too.

And so I think sometimes just really confronting our mortality, that can be good and it can also have its harder parts too.

But I think that, you know, if we were to look back on the whole life of what our obituary would look like, you know, like I think it kind of, you know, you see the strengths in an obituary, you see she loved well, like what would you want under a tombstone?

I know it sounds morbid, but I think it is helpful to think in those ways to highlight who we are, what our values are, who we are to the world, who we are to different people.

I think she even had us write it from different perspectives.

If I were, you know, from, you know, this person in your life would do this and this and yourself.

And so I think just honoring our experience and who we are today and from those different lenses, I think can be really powerful.

- And I think the piece that comes to mind too here is with like looking at our life with non-judgment, which is one of those tenets of mindfulness.

We talked about the retreat, right?

'Cause in medicine, we look at judgment.

I didn't do this, I didn't do that well.

This person did it better than me, like the comparing just- - Right, right, right.

- And instead, can you show up with non-judgment at least?

Maybe you can be kind, maybe you can be compassionate, but maybe you can simply be neutral about your fertility journey in the last year.

But why be into yourself about it?

- That's right. - We know, right?

The pathophysiology of that gets you nowhere good.

- That's right. - Neurochemically from a, I'm certain now I'm not the GYN, REI person, but neurochemically, that's not the best petri dish for success, right? - No, no, no.

And in a sort of an expression that I learned on this last retreat that really, really helped me, I think when I realized that like the most suffering I have for the most painful situations in my life today, it's when I think to myself, it shouldn't be this way.

Like when I say that to myself, and like the truth is like, who said it shouldn't be this way?

Maybe this is exactly where I'm supposed to be with the lessons that I'm supposed to be learning.

Like, I don't know.

I don't make those calls, those bigger calls.

But when I say to myself, it shouldn't be this way, I can tell you the suffering, it just exponentially goes up.

So what you offered to me at the retreat, and I'll offer this to all the people listening.

- It'd be one of my favorite phrases, I'm so excited.

- You know, it's coming.

I will say to myself, I wish it were different.

- Yeah. - I wish it were different.

And so just the energy difference, and the same reality is it isn't the way I want it to be in this moment.

But when I say it shouldn't be that way, immediately I'm the victim, immediately like, I give away all my power.

But when I say I wish it were different, it acknowledges, yeah, there is a difference between my expectations and reality.

And okay, then what am I gonna do about it?

I get to choose. - It's not just you forward, so you could wish on your birthday.

I wish there was a smaller number, right?

Or maybe I don't. - Right, right.

- Also, 'cause you sometimes think I wish, and I was like, would I wish?

No, probably not actually.

Or you can wish that our politics were different, or wish that you had more embryos or whatever, right?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - If you wish it, it immediately gets you to say, okay, well, now what?

- Yeah, that's right. - And maybe-- - This isn't fair, physiologically and energetically, and it's really energetically, everything lowers.

- That's right, so I wish it were different.

And then, 'cause that to me springs action, right?

So it's like, I wish it were different.

Okay, so I wish the isolation were different.

Huh, maybe I'll seek out a support group.

I wish I felt more connected to my REI.

Huh, maybe I'll get a second opinion and see if there might be a better fit out there.

I wish somebody just understood me and I could call them, you know, like maybe, like there's so many possibilities.

But I-- - And why do you think reflecting there is a question that I haven't asked in those words, but it should be one of the questions, which is, what do you wish were different?

Just because when we let it be seen, we can move past it.

You're honoring it, right?

And so I imagine in an REI journey, there are a lot of things you wish were different, but I think there's a lot of things every human wishes were different.

- That's true.

- And when you let them be seen, it's kind of like the anchor, right?

You move on.

- That's right. - Okay, I do, and I wish, I could, like, I could probably fill five pages of things I wish were different.

- That's right.

- And I would feel lighter, actually.

- That's right, that's right.

I wish it were different, right?

Because then maybe we can make it different.

If we, there's, I always say this surrounding prayer, I come back to that.

There are certain things we can't change.

Age is one of them, actually.

There are certain things we can change is our treatment team, our plan, our intention, our, I say, what energy do you wanna show up at the fertility clinic?

You knock on your note, you go every other day.

What energy do you wanna embody?

And so then what, how do you need to generate that before you even walk through the door?

And I think that helps people take back some of their power.

And it's, you know, yes, there are things that come up that are triggering and all the things, but I think when we can find that grounding, that home, that center, it just, it gives us a sense of perspective.

It gives us a sense of grounding so that the fertility journey does not have all the power.

- Yeah, I love to use the word tone and energy because I think so many of us notice when other people come with a tone we don't like, or we notice how maybe a leader in your department's tone influences your experience or your mother's tone of voice, or even a child's tone, right?

Like it's so powerful.

So when you see that in others, and so you can see how powerful it would be if you brought an intentional tone and energy to the fertility journey.

Another thing just popped up, and we haven't talked about this in terms of fertility, but I have to share it 'cause I use it a lot in leadership coaching, but, and actually I also use it in challenging relationships, especially if your partner has mental health or is neurodivergent or something like that.

So I talk about it as being a lighthouse rather than a zodiac raft.

And it strikes me as the same idea with fertility, right?

You wanna shine out light, you wanna have that hope.

You're sort of shining the light on the danger.

And you as the specialist and the physician would also do that.

And I think actually you know how to show up as a lighthouse.

But when we're in it, we're like the zodiac raft zoops around and tries to fix everything and correct everything and micromanage and hold it tight.

And those zodiac rafts are blow up boats.

And they sometimes crash on the rocks.

They use a lot of gas.

There, I mean, there's parts of it that are fun, right?

Like it's a little bit energizing.

There's adrenaline and we can get caught in that, but it's not a long-term strategy, right?

Many more boats are saved from the lighthouse analogy.

So I feel like that might be just, I do think also a birthday is kind of like that, right?

You're in the lighthouse.

The rest of the year you might be the zodiac raft going around doing all the things and you can decide whether you wanna do that or not.

- That's right.

- And the lighthouse is really seeing with your heart, right?

Same idea.

- It is. - Isn't that beautiful?

- The science comes back and it's so beautiful because anyone who knows me knows I'm not about just this false hope pie in the sky, spiritual bypassing.

No, no, no, no.

This is hope grounded in science.

This is hope based on why does it make sense for you to keep on this journey?

What is encouraging about, from a scientific standpoint, for prognosis reasons, about you, and for every single person I sit and I identify those things.

And I have one client and she says that that is the one thing that keeps her going is coming back to the science and coming back to her prognostic factors, why it makes sense.

So this is not just like some pie in the sky, cast the light, believe, hope, all the things.

I'm not saying you said that, I just wanna bring it back to science.

- Yeah, I love it.

- Because we do, we cast the light, we have the vision.

Our helpers come too.

We have the people who are in our world and sometimes they're even unexpected people, but we're not in it alone.

And I think the more we can be that light and shine that light, the more beautiful things will come into our awareness.

And the more we can stick with it too.

- Aside from the endocrinology science and the facility science, there's also neuroscience around a lot of this and like neurochemical science.

And I think many people think a lot of this is woo.

It's just not what we were taught in certain areas of our life, but there is actually tremendous amount of science around it if you choose to lean into the science.

And some people need that to help them lean into some of these ideas and ways of thinking and others are just happy to jump in, but it doesn't mean it's not there.

- Can you say a little bit about that?

I mean, I know because we've had these conversations with people who've been or not know.

- Yeah, well I'm thinking just about the pathophysiology of shame, blame, guilt, for example.

And so if you are shaming yourself, I'm now 42 and my fertility window is closing, you're releasing cortisol and norepinephrine and your amygdala shuts down, right?

And you are amongst other effects of cortisol and norepinephrine.

And there are a lot of other effects of cortisol and norepinephrine, but then you're not the creative problem solver.

You're not showing up in the same way.

It's a little bit like, I wish it were different, which doesn't release cortisol and norepinephrine versus it should be different.

- Right. - Which does probably.

- Right, yeah.

- And that's a very short way of thinking about it.

But if you recognize that different emotions actually results in the release of different neurochemicals in your body.

And just think stress if you want.

Stress anxiety releases cortisol, which has a whole physiologic cascade, not just on your brain, but on everything else, that's gonna impact your fertility.

And so it's why there's so much science around stress.

And I say this not to gaslight yourself for shame yourself, like, oh, this is my fault.

It's to recognize that like, oh, well, there are some things here maybe I wanna try.

And not everything works for everybody, but there might be a crack there for you that lets the light in or something you wanna try.

And as you know from retreats, I teach a lot of yoga and I teach a lot of mindfulness in large part because of the pathophysiology.

And it helps us then be able to do other things that we wanna do, whether it's changing a habit or even getting pregnant, right?

Or leaving a job or leaving a marriage, all of that.

We really have to come back to how we feel.

And not only how it impacts our actions, but the neurochemicals and the science behind how we feel.

And I think in medicine, we were not taught that.

I'm a psych nerd too.

I was a psych major in college.

I love all that stuff, but there is actually science.

That's why people have PhDs in this stuff.

And as you know from retreats, I offer a lot of different readings from people who've written about this stuff because I think it's for the medical mind, it gives us something that we can understand to loop back to.

And I think when you see possibilities and things that might work or you might wanna try them, not that you have to try them all, but like what appeals to you and why not try it if there's something that you can do because that is something in your control.

Whereas a lot of, once the stuff is in the Petri dish, it's not really, it's in your control, Erika, but nobody else's control, right?

- Right, right, right.

And there's things we can do to affect our biochemistry, to affect our neurochemical soup, our uterine soup.

- Yeah, I love it.

- And like, go on a retreat, try out a session with a coach, find ways to increase your parasympathetic tone because that is the most receptive state, right?

And what we're trying to do here is help a person to receive an embryo, right?

And there's so much more, but I think if you actually think about the alignment that has to happen on a biological level, it can only help, it can only help.

And it feels good, it feels really good.

- I'm curious if you would share, and I don't know that I know this, but you came back for a second retreat.

So I know the first retreat created a lot of change, but what was it?

I mean, I'm wondering why, I have thoughts about why, but also knowing that it's so hard to give ourselves permission.

Like I know the first one, you came for your 40th birthday and the people are always willing to do something good for themselves in their 40th birthday.

- Right, right, right, yeah, yeah.

- You did it again.

- I did it again.

So that's a great question.

So I went with the intention for the first retreat of slowing down.

And I knew that my entire life up until then, I had just sort of shoved my food in as quickly as possible.

Yes, while at work, but even not at work, because that just became my habit was, I walked fast, I never slowed down.

And I was just sick of just being on the go all the time and feeling like life was passing me by.

And in the wake of a divorce and some life changes and things and job changes.

And so that was a nice opportunity.

And in that safe cocoon, I slowed down.

The slowing down of the eating persisted beyond the retreat.

I just remember just enjoying the yoga so much, enjoying the field trips we had to the coast at the poppies and enjoying the food, all of the aspects of the food, not just tasting it, but it was visually so appealing.

And truly, Jesse, a big reason why I decided to come back was because you have such a captivating presence and you are so wise yourself that I just knew that, and you're on my vision board, I told you that.

Like I wanted to, it was my way of spending more time with you.

- I will actually say, and it sounds funny, I think to hear that, but I hear that a lot.

And I think sometimes people feel like, well, I need to have this project or I need to accomplish this thing.

And I think what I see through the work is that people might come for one thing, but they get something totally different.

- Totally.

- The shift that happens is opens up a portal that maybe they didn't even know was there.

And as you know, my intention is really not that people just come for a few days and relax, which I think many people's idea of a retreat is I'm just gonna go, but then it be something that changes you going forward.

And I have a sense that's why people come back 'cause they're like, wow, that really changed me.

- And we're never a one or done project, right?

- No, no, no.

- It's like, I'm ready.

I want some more of that, whatever that is, right?

- Yeah, and the presence and the people I met on this last retreat were so incredible.

We've kept in touch.

Everyone has big shifts in their life and it's just so beautiful to see the encouragement and the love.

Like you say, you have love as science, like love is science.

And so you create this space of love.

And I just, I was like, I wanna spend more time with Jesse and her wisdom because I know that that's going to bring out the wisdom in me, help me tap into my own intuition and the next steps for myself and that clarity.

And so yes, it was very pleasurable on many levels in terms of the beauty and the food and the relaxation, but my nervous system finally calmed down, finally, even despite my own attempts in the context of my life to do yoga and meditation.

I mean, if you look at what I do on a daily basis, you'd be like, wow, she's doing pretty well.

But I knew my nervous system needed something deeper to be able to really hear and slow down.

- I love it.

- Yeah.

So I have a question for you.

So what is one thing you know today that you did not know this date last year?

- That's so interesting.

What do I know?

What came to me and now I'm like, do I really know that?

What came to me was that it's all gonna be okay.

Which is, and then I'm like, is it okay to say that?

I don't even know what that means when I say it.

But what I hear when I say it is this sense of, and I was really thinking about this yesterday actually, just a deep sense of trust that not that it's all gonna be fabulous, 'cause it's not, but that I really do understand that I will figure it out and whatever things come up, I'm gonna figure those out too.

And this is not said in the sense of a life that doesn't have daily stresses and aging parents and health problems and all kinds of things.

But really from this sense, and I don't think I knew that a year ago.

I knew I was supposed to think that a year ago, right?

But I didn't know it, I often say it a cellular level.

- Yeah, yeah.

- And I think a year ago, I had made some huge changes and really pushed myself to do a lot of new things, and not in a bad pushing way.

They were things I really wanted to do, but I stepped off into the freezing cold water.

And so I think I've now kind of come back up to the surface floating on a more summer day.

And it can really say that, well, even if I get sucked back down, or even if the lake freezes since you're in Vermont, I'll be fine, right?

If that makes sense.

And so it's that inner sense of knowing, and my thought is also that, I think that's come through a lot of work, and a lot of understanding mindfulness, and a lot of trial and error, and a lot of coaching.

But it also comes with age and with wisdom.

And I don't know, I think some people get to the end of their life and don't feel that way.

And it's something that you acquire over time and overseeing yourself, navigate different challenges, things that you didn't even think possible.

And I guess that would be the other thing I would say is, this year I've done a whole bunch of things that I, they weren't even on my list of things that I wanted to do or thought I would do, or ever thought someone like me would do.

(laughs)

And yet I'm like, oh, I guess someone like me does do this.

And so this idea that I can just be open and interesting things will happen, in my former self really thought that things happened when you planned them, and when you organized them, and when you made them happen.

And now I'm like-- - Force them. (laughs) - Yeah, things just happened just like getting older, but that there's this, so that's what I know this year.

I can't really explain it in one phrase, but hopefully that comes across.

- That makes so much sense.

Beautiful, thank you so much for sharing.

- Tell me what you know this year that you didn't know last year.

- I think I know that I really know myself and I know what I want and I can trust myself.

Like that's that sort of that deep, especially when I look back at the journals and the letters and just, I know what I want.

I know what's important to me.

And just having that clarity and I can trust myself, like I have everything I need.

I think that's wonderful.

And I think that sort of tempting voice, I think like the Garden of Eden, like there's always that voice in my ear like, oh, but you're alone, oh, but you're alone.

And I think that renewed appreciation, like Erica, you are not alone.

Like you might feel alone sometimes, but you really are not alone.

And to lean into that, yes, I need alone time, but I am loved, I'm supported at every level.

And like you said, it is gonna be okay, but it's like this deep sense of self-trust that like-- - Gosh, it's a similar revelation.

- Yeah, yeah, it's kind of interesting.

But I just, I feel like I'm approaching this birthday with a lot more lightness and a lot more appreciation for-- - And I think that's the question you asked is a really beautiful question to ask on your birthday.

What do you know this year that you didn't know last year?

I actually really also might add the question, I'm gonna make a list on your suggestion there of like, how are you now?

Because so many of us feel alone and like we don't belong and our society is designed to make us feel that way, so we'll consume things.

But recognizing how we're not alone, how powerful is that?

And I think your treats help you do that.

I think mindset helps you do that.

You and I are off to yoga in a little bit.

Yoga helps you do that. - Yes, yes, yes.

- But noticing the things that help you do that is really powerful.

- It's true, it's true.

And I think sometimes we really do need a reset.

We need something that is really outside of our typical.

And so I would encourage anybody who is listening to this podcast to go check out Jesse's retreats.

I mean, there's ones of various length.

I knew I needed like the longer one to really reset.

But it just is such a gift to yourself.

I was able to use some of my CME funding for it and get CME credits and use CME days.

I mean, I was like, that's like the trifecta and come back a better version of myself where I could reintegrate in with the messiness of it all and feel just so much better in my own skin and my own decisions and human nature.

- The first time you didn't have any of those things, right?

So this was just a special bonus extra.

- Yeah, it was like a luxury.

I remember splurging 'cause I was like cash and no CME, none of that stuff.

But I did, I knew I needed, I knew I was gonna come back.

And I, you know, you've evolved, I've evolved.

I think it's just such a beautiful, just to know the deep knowledge of what's available and what can be your gift to yourself, the time, the nurturing and the simplicity.

My lives are so complex and sometimes just to slow down and appreciate, it really makes all the difference.

So beyond the retreats, where can people find you?

The easiest place to find me is just at my website, which is jessymahoneymd.com.

And it's jessie with an I E or it's pauseandpresence.com.

And they can find out all about the Healing Medicine Podcast or the one-on-one coaching, small group coaching.

I do coaching a lot by topics or themes because that's kind of a fun way to get people together and feel like they belong.

So whether you're pivoting in your career or you're a new leader or you want marriage relationship coaching or parent coaching, I tend to have topics around that as well as the retreats and then one-on-one for people who feel like they need/want that.

It doesn't have to be a need, it can just be a want.

It can be how you like to engage with your own work.

So I would love to have people reach out to me and absolutely come join me in person 'cause that's really, really delightful.

And I thank you so much for having me on the podcast.

- Thank you.

- Thank you so much for coming back because that was so fun.

I love it when people come back.

- It was so fun.

- I noticed when people come back too, they immediately drop into the work because they know what to expect and there's that level of comfort or when they come and someone else told them, like you said, "Oh, you should go, it's great." And so the results are like, not that we're looking for bigger or better, but things just flow much more seamlessly if that happens.

So come back again 'cause I wanna get to see you again.

Maybe I'll get to Vermont someday soon.

- That would be so fun.

- Vermont more likely than New York.

- That's right.

But if anybody who's listening has questions about the retreat, I had a friend who was like, it's the real deal, it's wonderful.

That also helped me make the choice to do it.

So I'm open for DMs or questions, using me as a resource because really it is medicine.

It is absolutely medicine.

Thank you, Dr. Jesse.

Man, we both have beautiful birthdays and just in beautiful lives, right?

That's the whole point.

And I know this wisdom is going to really influence so many people and how they can see themselves with their hearts.

So thank you for being here.

I look forward to so many more conversations with you.

- Thank you, so fun.

Until the next time, bye.