Reclaiming Intimacy on the Fertility Journey with Dr. Alexandra Stockwell
Somewhere between the stim calendar and the retrieval, sex stopped being about desire and started being about timing. And once that shift happens, a lot of couples quietly stop touching altogether –– not just in bed.
This week I sat down with Dr. Alexandra Stockwell, physician, intimacy and marriage expert, bestselling author of Uncompromising Intimacy, and host of a top-ranked show, the Intimate Marriage Podcast.
For over twenty years, she's helped high-achieving couples rebuild real connection, and in this episode we go straight at one of the topics fertility patients almost never talk about out loud: what happens to intimacy when sex becomes either a protocol or something to avoid entirely?
Give it a listen.
This one is for every couple who's felt the warmth and passion quietly drain out of the relationship and wants it back.
In this episode:
Why sex during fertility treatment feels fundamentally incongruent, and why naming that plainly is the first step toward changing it
How "we can't have sex, so we stop touching altogether" quietly erodes connection –– and what to do instead
How fertility treatment shrinks affection, non-sexual touch, and flirtation long before you notice it's happening
Receptivity vs. passivity: why they're not the same thing and how cultivating receptivity changes everything
The 30-second mindfulness practice that immediately increases sensation and connection
One small act of affection that doesn't create an existential crisis and why it matters more than you'd think
Find Dr. Alexandra Stockwell at alexandrastockwell.com, on Instagram @intimacydoctor, or through her book Uncompromising Intimacy, her show The Intimate Marriage Podcast, and her app Intimate Connection.
The fertility journey is painful, no question. But it can also become an opportunity for a kind of intimacy you've never had.
It's okay for this process to be imperfect. Progress, not perfection.
With Love and Science,
💜 Dr. Erica
P.S. If this hit close to home, you don't have to sort through it alone. Book a consult here and let's talk about where you are. I'd love to connect.
Also, be sure to check out our website: loveandsciencefertility.com
Follow us on social media:
IG: www.instagram.com/loveandsciencefertility
FB: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61553692167183
Please don’t let infertility have the final word. We are here to take the burden from you so that you can achieve your goal of building your family with confidence and compassion. I’m rooting for you always.
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Erica Bove, MD (00:01)
Hello, my loves, and welcome back to the Love and Science Podcast. Today I have an amazing guest. She is just fabulous. Her name is Dr. Alexandra Stockwell. I have known her for many years. She is a friend, she is a colleague, she is a family medicine physician who now has transformed her career as the intimacy doctor. She's a physician coach and an intimate marit expert, and she is widely known for her ability to catalyze immediate and meaningful shifts in high-achieving couples.
Who want genual emotional connection, sensual passion, and a relationship that feels as alive and successful as the rest of their lives. Doctor Alexander, I'm gonna continue welcoming you and and singing your accolades, but I just wanted to pause and say, Welcome, welcome. I'm so glad you're here today.
Alexandra (00:44)
I am thrilled to be here and very excited about our conversation.
Erica Bove, MD (00:48)
Amazing. so a little more background about you. So for over twenty years, you have worked with men and women to bring real connection back into all aspects of the relationship, from the ordinary texture of daily life to the quality of intimacy in the bedroom. Your clients are growth oriented, accomplished, and quite competent in most areas of life. They're confronted with the reality that those qualities haven't translated yet to their intimate relationship. Or maybe they did before and they've lost it. But
I will say the audience here on this podcast is mostly female physicians and other high achieving women on the fertility journey. And we're gonna have this really interesting conversation about the many, many, many layers of what you are an expert in, which is intimacy among couples, and the overlay of the fertility journey.
Alexandra (01:38)
Yes, absolutely.
Erica Bove, MD (01:40)
Beautiful, beautiful. And I will also put in a plug. You're the best selling author of Uncompromising Intimacy, the creator of the Align in Hot Marriage Program, and also the Intimate Connection app. And also, this is an amazing podcast, the host of the Intimate Marriage Podcast, which is ranked in the top one percent of podcasts globally. It is a podcast I listen to regularly. So people are always like, Dr. Erica, what do you listen to? This. Go listen to her podcast. It is amazing. So again, welcome, welcome. It's so great to have you here.
Alexandra (02:09)
Thank you very much, said
Erica Bove, MD (02:11)
Absolutely. Okay. So I will also share that you were a guest on in our support group last week, which was an amazing conversation with lots of great follow up. And so, you know, I want to talk about some of the things we talked about in our support group and then also extend that conversation to more questions that were generated after the fact. And, you know, I think perhaps the best place to start is really talking about, you know, when sex either becomes part of the fertility protocol.
Or something that must be avoided at all costs. And I find this particular question to be very stress-inducing, you know, both in terms of this, like, you know, I'm gonna mess this up aspect of things, but then also it can really start to shake at the foundations of you know an otherwise healthy couple. So can we start there and talk about sort of your thoughts on, you know, this this really interesting and painful at times overlay between
You know, when something is procretive and it has to be sort of done at a certain time, but then also when there is all these rules and taboos, some of which are evidence based, some of which aren't, that that where people get these laundry lists of things to do and not to do. What are your thoughts as an intimacy expert?
Alexandra (03:25)
What I think just it's it's obvious in your question, but sometimes kind of like the Emperor has no clothes story, it's really important to just state the very basic thing, which is that sex feels best when we feel like doing it. So to feel like doing it and not be permitted feels like
A form of disconnection in marriage and
Erica Bove, MD (03:56)
Mm, mm.
Alexandra (03:57)
to not feel like doing it, one or both people, and know that it is going to happen with both people's consent, you're going to make this happen. That
Erica Bove, MD (04:11)
Mm.
Alexandra (04:11)
also is, even though we're talking about having sex, it can feel extremely disconnecting to essentially.
Have it because both of your prefrontal cortexes decide it's really important because you deeply yearn for a child, and that of course has a lot of feelings in it. But those are not the feelings of erotic responsiveness and desire and a kind of juicy flirtatious energy, or even.
A relaxed energy to slowly turn from everyday considerations to have a really sensual and then sexual time together. So just at its foundation, let's be very clear what any couple, any man and any woman on the fertility journey knows, but it's it's like you know it as well as you.
you need to breathe air, but it's not often just simply named that sex in this phase of life is essentially extremely incongruent with the states of our hearts and bodies. And one of the things that makes sex really nourishing and hot and fantastic is when there is congruence.
Mind, body, soul, heart, like it's it's the synced up congruence which creates the sense of timelessness and pleasure and really creates the kind of connection that the great poets write about. And sex during the fertility journey or the infertility journey, whichever way you want to describe it, is fundamentally incongruent.
So
Erica Bove, MD (06:22)
Yeah.
Alexandra (06:24)
I'll stop there because I like I mean to say it in this way that as you listen, you feel the compassion that both you, Erica, and I have that sex is hard enough in the context of a busy life and long-term relationship. And there are so many challenges and considerations that
Every single couple has unless they just shut down and turn away from sex altogether, but the
Erica Bove, MD (06:54)
Mm-hmm.
Alexandra (06:55)
intense exacerbation of it when it needs to be scheduled during fertility really it's it's rooted in a f an experience of incongruence.
Erica Bove, MD (07:09)
I think that's the best description I've ever heard of it. You know, when I was a fellow, I learned the phrase timed intercourse. And we'd timed intercourse times three. And I was like, what does that even mean? And is that grounded in science? I thought that was the most disheartening, terrible expression I'd ever heard. Like, do I get out my prescription pad and write that and then hand it to the couple? Like that is totally such a devaluing I I just hated that expression. I still do actually. And
I think what you're saying is there's this dissonance or these vectors that are going in the different directions. And maybe the mind is saying one thing, but the body is saying another. And then there's that misalignment that can happen with time. And and I I mean, I will tell you, I spent last week and I was on call, I spent about 25 minutes on the phone with one of my own patients who they never had any problems in the past until they started trying to have a baby.
And they've been trying for 14 months now and really, really disheartened. And they lived about two and a half hours away from our clinic. And I was trying to talk with them about whether they thought they could have quote unquote and never use the expression timed intercourse, whether they could get together at home, or whether they needed to come in the other day, the next day, for an insemination for really functional reasons, right? Because there was nuance at erectile dysfunction and
You know, they didn't know if they were going to be able to to get together. And you know, sh the the female partner was crying, she paused so she could call her husband. And you might say, what's the big deal? Just schedule them for the exemplation, but that's missing the point. That's not what they want. That's not their top choice. They want their lives to go back to normal again and they want to have a baby, right? so I think we have to to back up and understand.
how painful this is for people. And I think you're right. Like both do this now or don't do this now, like how very complicated that is for people.
Alexandra (09:12)
Yeah, and I think understanding how deeply this goes for each of them and between them, that that this thing which is meant to create more connection functionally in this context really dials up disconnection and a sense of isolation and inadequacy and like
You want to be in it together. That's one of the reasons you want to have a child together. And yet in this very intimate matter, you don't feel in it together, even if you're both in the challenge together. And so we can really talk with specificity about how to navigate this so it creates more connection, whether you're not having sex or you.
are
having sex, and of course, sex generally is defined as penis in vagina. And that's that's how you and I are using the term that is very common. One of the things I'm going to talk about shortly is really broadening, not for the purposes of conception, of course, but for the purposes of making love and being sensually connected to really broaden what we mean by sex because it really
has no reason other than in the procreative context to just mean penis and vagina. But putting that aside for the moment, I think the intense challenge, but also the really wonderful opportunity, is to be intentional and playful and discover how to create more congruence across the board.
in your communication, in your presence with one another, or you use the word dissonance. So I guess what would the opposite of that be? Consonant. Resonance. Beautiful. Resonance and
Erica Bove, MD (11:18)
Resonance? Resonance? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Alexandra (11:21)
consonance that you know, I'm I'm gonna share an analogy first or you know, a a related story. So I had a lot of different
Journalists and podcast hosts contact me during COVID with questions about dating. You know, these are people who haven't met before and connect on a dating app or something like that. And so, of course, COVID was a devastating time when dating wasn't really happening because people weren't leaving their homes. All of that is true. However,
For, you know, a random hookup, it was terrible. But for cultivating deeper, more meaningful relationships, COVID actually was very helpful because it meant that dating couples prior to having sex were having more meaningful conversations, were getting to know one another's personalities more deeply because all they could do was connect over Zoom. So
Erica Bove, MD (12:33)
Mm-hmm.
Alexandra (12:34)
I think for for the couples who were dating during that time who actually wanted deeper, more meaningful relationships, not being able to touch one another meant that there was more depth and breadth in the relationship. And it made that first kiss that much more meaningful and not just the result of a cocktail hormone or pressure. So we're obviously not talking about dating here, but I want to like use that.
As a reference point for how being more intentional about getting on the same page, about having your souls sync up and your hearts sync up, and in some ways having your bodies really sync up, and just feeling more connected with one another, that definitely is possible. This is not just Pollyanna.
Like wishful thinking. That definitely is possible in this phase. However, it requires intention, it requires clarity, it requires both people to be committed. And it means that if you like the vast majority of couples, are much more comfortable having sex than talking about sex, well, right now it's not comfortable having sex. And so you can
Increase your comfort talking about sex, being able to open up and share hard feelings without either one of you going into problem-solving mode or becoming overwhelmed. Like you can really increase the capacity of emotional intimacy and aligning sensually when you're not supposed to have sex.
And when you are supposed to have sex.
Erica Bove, MD (14:33)
Hmm. I think that is so, so brilliant. And I'll tell you, I work with a lot of couples in my work and you know, I sometimes over Zoom, but actually more and more in my current practice, especially since we're out of COVID, like in the office, and the body language is very telling. Like sometimes couples truly are sitting with their chairs pointed away from each other. And sometimes you can see they're closer together and their hands are whole being held or
Even just those we talked about this, like it's okay to touch each other during the embryo transfer, right? It's this this very sterile procedure, but there's no rule against affection, right, during those moments. And so, you know, if you're listening to this podcast and maybe this is a point of struggle, like thinking about in general, you know, am I turning towards my partner more or am I turning away more? And that could be both internal and external, right?
yeah.
Alexandra (15:32)
Absolutely.
And this this seems like you were referencing it. It's something I covered in the when when I was a guest teacher in your program, that so often, this is true in all times in a relationship, when sex isn't going to happen, it's like that has an an upstream effect where there's
less flirtation, less affection, less non-sexual physical touch, less sensual touch that isn't going to lead to sex. It's like as human beings, as mammals, there's very little where we have a switch that is either on or off. But we kind of operate as though that's the case. Like in a very restrictive binary way, if
If we can't have sex, then we flip the switch and we don't give like a warm, relaxing, connected hug when we see our partner at the end of the day. Or we just stop putting our head on his shoulder and just randomly coming up and putting our arms around his waist or holding hands because it feels like.
It's just too hard to titrate and also too emotionally complicated to titrate. And so instead of being a yes to what is actually available in abundance, which is affection and non sexual physical touch and the good hormones and the sense of connection and the oxytocin and so forth through touching, because it can't go all the way to penis and vagina sex.
We stop it way in advance and just start touching less. And I think that is just one of the sad, very normal, common behaviors. It's like if we can't be all the way open, we close all the way down. And the way to change that is slowly with practice, notice when you
Shut down, turn away when he reaches to touch you and you brace a little bit. It can just be a second where it's like the armor goes up. That's okay. Take a breath and let it fall away. If you're both clear on what the rules are, and if you're not, you should be, at any given phase, like this is a time not to have sex, or this is a time to have sex, as long as you're both clear.
You're not gonna like lose control and suddenly find yourself having sex when you're not supposed to. You're like for anyone listening, you are aware, you know what the deal is, and you can really expand your body's connecting and feeling good with one another. You can even do that with your clothes on.
And certainly with your underwear on in case you feel concerned, but there's like so much feeling good and creating more connection that is genuinely available as long as you both are clear on what the parameters are, what you're not doing, and discovering what you might be doing any given moment.
Erica Bove, MD (19:24)
Hmm, I think that is also rich, Alexandra. And you know, what came to my mind is it's kind of like, you know, going from living in color, technicolor, to living in black and white. And and we don't even realize the process is happening until it's like, what what happened? Why is this so cold? Why is this also sterile? And you know, I will add as an REI, there's actually not many ways to mess it up. I think that in high achieving people,
There's truly a laundry list of rules. And it's like I have to do this perfectly and that perfectly and the other perfectly. And I will just say, yes, follow what your doctor's office says, but a lot of that is not grounded in science. And so if you truly feel like you have quote unquote messed up, give yourself grace. Call the office. These are sometimes awkward conversations for portal messages to have, but we have them every day. They're not awkward on our end. And so, you know, there's so few things.
That people can do to really mess things up and so
Alexandra (20:23)
Will you give an example
of messing up? Because I'm not an REI and I wanna make sure I know exactly what we're talking about.
Erica Bove, MD (20:29)
Sure, sure. Okay, so say, say somebody is told that they you know, that they're gonna have their insemination on like a Sunday, right? And they're told like two to five days of abstinence, right, beforehand. And then the something happens and there's an encounter on a Friday night, and they're like, my gosh, that's one and a half days, I've messed this up forever. And and and people are just really beating themselves up for not following the instructions.
And men are constantly producing sperm, right? Like, unless there's really, really a concern about the sperm number, like that is not gonna mess anything up. Or or say somebody, you know, has intercourse during an embryo transfer cycle, and they were told on our list of questions, do not have intercourse from the time that you start estrogen until the time that you have a positive heartbeat. I mean, I'm not even gonna do the math. That's months. People are told this, and it's outside of science. There's even a study that says,
That having intercourse during an embryo transfer cycle actually increases chances of success, kind of l like what we were talking about in our support group about all the chemicals and all the all the hormones. And so, you know, things happen and people say, my gosh, I messed everything up, or the sperm quality is not going to be good, or you know, you know, we didn't have intercourse three days in a row, like the documentation said. And sperm lasts for two to five days in the general track. I there's there's actually a wide range of of
How long, I mean the egg window is shorter, but that's not usually people's problem. And so, you know, people say, you know, we had intercourse when we shouldn't have, or this happened and I didn't wait the five days, and people just get in their minds and there's so few things people can like is there really anything that people can do? you know, I really I can't yeah. I mean, this is just me trying to like myth bust a little bit.
Alexandra (22:15)
Okay, well Okay, I'm really loving
this, and you of course are an REI and I definitely am not, but as someone focused on intimacy and sensual and sexual connection, hearing what you describe as a mess up, in my mind I'm thinking, okay, this sounds like the best opportunity.
For him to really up his oral game.
Erica Bove, MD (22:46)
Yes, yes, thank you for saying that. I think okay, so so I that's a perfect segue into the next question I have for you, which is how can we expand our definition of intimacy?
Alexandra (22:58)
Okay, I am definitely going to answer that, but there's something else that might not come up again that I wanna that came to mind
Erica Bove, MD (23:04)
That's quite beautiful.
Alexandra (23:05)
with what you just said. And that is that I think many men know this, but maybe not as consciously as they will if they hear me say this. And most women do not appreciate this. That
And I'm talking in a heterosexual context. Well, I'm talking in general, but I I mean to apply it in a heterosexual context that one of the things that brings a man tremendous pleasure, like so much more than we as women appreciate, is witnessing his woman having pleasure. And in fact, I think that this is something the multiple billion dollar
porn industry has tapped into because there are exceptions and there are, you know, a small percentage of different kinds of porn, but the vast majority of porn is filmed and produced through the male eyes watching the woman have her orgasm, have her ecstasy, and that watching a woman in pleasure is what then gets him off on his
you know, in front of his screen. And I'm in case it sounds like it, I'm not encouraging porn. I'm I'm not really meaning to address porn in one way or another. I'm just saying that this is something the porn industry has hacked and used with great success given their goals. And it's also true when there's no filming, no performance, no porn,
in a bedroom that like let me say that I coach I've had many couples where she's willing to have sex. It's like duty sex, obligation sex. She knows it's super important to him and she wants him to do things for her, you know, not in the bedroom. And so she she has sex. I'm not talking about sexless marriage, but there's no
question that he feels the difference when even if she's having
Erica Bove, MD (25:28)
Mm-hmm.
Alexandra (25:29)
an orgasm it's because she's supposed to not just supposed
Erica Bove, MD (25:32)
Right.
Alexandra (25:33)
to have an orgasm but supposed to have sex versus she really is experiencing pleasure and when a man has sex with a woman who is experiencing pleasure he's never gonna want to go back
having
sex with a woman who's very responsible but checked out from the perspective of her own body. So
Erica Bove, MD (26:01)
Yeah.
Alexandra (26:02)
when I we're gonna talk about expanding the definition of sex, as you just asked, but I wanna be really clear that it's very easy for us women to get into a kind of transactional mindset.
Like if he does this for me, I need to do it for him. And if we're talking about oral sex during a time when there's not supposed to be ejaculation, it's not the
Erica Bove, MD (26:29)
Mm-hmm.
Alexandra (26:29)
rule is not no penis and vagina, it's no ejaculation. So it's not
Erica Bove, MD (26:34)
Right.
Alexandra (26:34)
like I mean, you still could use your mouth and hands to provide a lot of pleasure for his penis without it getting to ejaculation, but I'm not even talking about that. Like
I'm talking about removing any sense of transactionality. There's no
Erica Bove, MD (26:51)
Mm, mhm.
Alexandra (26:52)
like parody here where he does this, so she needs to do that. And for a woman to learn to relax and realize that her experience of pleasure is fantastic for her. That part's obvious. And also really fantastic for him.
The way for a woman to really be a generous lover is not to do all kinds of things to his body. That's great if you feel like doing it, but the way for a woman to be a generous lover is to let him experience your pleasure by maybe moaning a little bit more than you might be inclined to, or using words not with a running commentary that just takes you into your head and is not what I'm talking about, but like
Mm yeah, I love that. Or you know, I'm not I'm not a fan of performance because that just takes you out of the experience. But if you're already feeling good, whether it's your facial expression or the sound you're making or the way your body's moving
Let the pleasure you're feeling be easily perceived by him. First of all, so he's not left wondering if he should change what he's doing. And second of all, because that really does bring him pleasure too.
And if you're on the infertility journey and feeling betrayed by your body and like you can't do the thing the two of you want to be doing together with ease and spontaneity.
Learning to experience more pleasure, to be more receptive, to not immediately reach up and do something to him, but instead savor what he's doing for you, that's not selfish. That may be one of the very best things the two of you can do for your that you can do for your relationship. And
this is something you're going to take into the rest of your future in the sex you have, if this is the thing that inspires you to really experience more pleasure, the kind that's available with his attention and love and growing skill the more you do it.
without
any kind of penetration at all.
Erica Bove, MD (29:33)
Mic drop. I mean, that's just so incredible. And I mean, I have so many thoughts, but what I want to share is that in my experience working with hundreds of women, thousands even, and even why I formed love in science was because I was seeing people cycle after cycle after cycle for whom their treatments were not working. And female physicians have a higher rate of that happening than non-physicians. And my my coach friend, Roseanne Austin,
Has this expression, the it's because these high achieving women, of which you know, we are in that group, right? She says
Alexandra (30:10)
Sure.
Erica Bove, MD (30:10)
people are trying to get pregnant like a man. There's so much masculine energy. And I think you and I would agree that these are oversimplifications, but there's so much masculine energy that that we have in our high achieving jobs, and that when people are trying to conceive, you know, we say conceiving is receiving.
And so how can we help women get into a more receptive energy? I have thoughts about this in terms of creativity and what you just said about sensuality. I think what you said is going to be helpful to high achieving women on the journey to get into that physiological state of receiving.
Alexandra (30:56)
Yeah, that's a really profound point you make. And while I haven't thought about it quite like this ever before, I think what your friend said about high achieving women trying to get pregnant like a man, I think high achieving women we I need to qualify it 'cause the first time I say it it
Could so easily be misunderstood, but we tend to have sex like a man too. And I don't mean our genitals, I don't mean that at all, but I just mean like the speed with which we move from first kiss to penetration, or like we feel a pressure not to take too long to have our orgasm, where it really is more of a receptive.
Not always like I'm a fan of variety, let me just say that. But I think that in general the thing to cultivate in sex in any context it for a woman is more receptivity, more of a leisurely feeling, more of timelessness and just in a mindful way bringing attention to pleasure.
that that is the thing that makes us more receptive. And that can happen during rapid pounding. That can happen, you know, I can be in a fundamentally receptive state when I'm on top. Like this is this is not about anything. I I just feel a need to distinguish receptivity and passivity. Like that's
Erica Bove, MD (32:49)
Yes.
Alexandra (32:50)
not what this is about.
Erica Bove, MD (32:51)
No
Alexandra (32:53)
like whatever kind of sex you enjoy having on you know, whatever positions, whether it's like simpler, more vanilla, or you're into high sensation experiences and more adventure, like whatever it is, it can always be done with more receptivity. And when it comes to like I really like what you said about just more creativity.
more mindfulness in general, but if we're specifically talking about sensuality and sexuality, the best way to become more receptive is to breathe deeply and bring your attention to your genitals, whether it's your perineum or your clitoris, like
it it doesn't need to be so anatomically specific, quite frankly, but I think like the next time as you listen, the next time that you are having any kind of physical connection with your partner, whether you're kissing and making out, whether it's an embrace and you're both fully clothed, whether you're
Having penetrative sex and you're on the bottom, or whether you're having penetration sex or you're on the top, or any version of a side position, like whatever it is, the next time you're in contact with one another, just breathe and bring your attention to where you're touching. And if you do that, but you're not in the
habit of doing that, you will realize at some point that your mind went back to making sure you pick up the paper plates for the party or, you know, whatever it is that that you're, you know, or noticing that the shoes aren't lined up properly, that you can see in on the floor of your closet, or like, you know, whatever it is, you won't notice when your attention leaves the present
experience the mindful way of connecting with your body. But you will notice once it has, and then you just bring it back. And to to be like even more specific about this, I've been married for over 30 years, and so I have no idea how many times I have had sex and made love with my husband. I have no idea what the number is.
especially since we met in medical school and the number was not so high during our training
Erica Bove, MD (35:42)
Ha ha ha.
Alexandra (35:43)
and residency. But anyway, it's some number of times. And so there are different phases. And I've had phases where the sex itself was just like less nourishing, less less sensational. And
Whenever I've had a moment that's like that, I then breathe and just bring my attention back to my vagina or vulva or wherever the attention is, and I immediately have more sensation, more embodiment, and a better sense of connection with my husband.
Erica Bove, MD (36:32)
Thank you so much for sharing that. And I think that attention, right? The attention gets split in so many directions. And I think, you know, that's the best gift we can give anybody in any context is our full attention. But there are so many things that make it so hard to do that. And so I love your idea about receiving. I love your idea about all different kinds of touch. Even you I think you had this phrase about like non sexual touch.
and I wanna talk about that, but I I wanted to also say, okay, so if there are these rules that people are trying to abide by and people say, Well, you know, everything that you say sounds well and good, but that's not part of anything that's ever been part of our experience, what do you recommend that people do? Where to start?
Alexandra (37:24)
I recommend starting slowly, letting go of perfection and bringing in playfulness and curiosity instead. And I deeply believe that having a fantastic relationship is a learnable skill and having a fantastic connected sexual life is a me is a r learnable skill. Like all of the things that we are talking about are learnable skills, you know.
I'm sure you've talked in other episodes about the difference between a fixed mindset and a growth mindset. In a fixed mindset, you just think people are the way they are. And so you work with what you got. And with a growth mindset, you orient to the fact that you can keep learning and your partner can keep learning and you can keep learning together. So when it comes to implementing any of the things we've been talking about, I suggest you start.
Super
small, really titrate down to where it's just a little bit of a stretch. It's slightly outside your comfort zone, but it's not gonna blow you out. So maybe when it comes to expanding touch, sexual or not, you just start by holding hands. If if if you take a walk together, make a point of holding hands. That's a perfect.
Next right step. I love how you close your support group sessions with what's your next right step? Well, a next right step after hearing this is if you haven't been holding hands for a while, hold hands. If you do, you know, maybe taking a walk, maybe at dinner you just reach over and take your partner's hand while you look them in the eyes and have a conversation and nothing else changes. It's just your hands are
Touching, or if you're driving somewhere, you reach over and put your hand on his thigh, or take his hand and hold it and have it on yours. Like that already, if you are not really touching, except for time sex, that creates connection, ease, a little bit of delight.
depends on your marriage and your personalities if that leads to conversation or it's just something you enjoy without actually naming it. That's a great next step. If you're already affectionate in these ways, then maybe you hug and I don't mean like a like a shoulder and an armpit kind of a hug like at 90 degrees,
Erica Bove, MD (40:14)
Ha ha ha.
Alexandra (40:15)
but you really do a full on
embrace and if you if you do that, you know, just hold it a little longer than you usually do. Because I do think that there are a lot of couples who hug, but it's the equivalent of like a peck on the cheek instead of a real kiss. And so you know, you're both clothed. This this is not a moment for miscommunication and I mean a hug like that.
Could be an invitation to get naked together, but it definitely does not need to be. So just embrace, breathe. Maybe you put your head on his shoulder. Maybe you lean up and kiss. But just staying in that embrace a little longer than you would previously is a great next step. And
We could pick like lots of different examples. The point is, whatever is normal for you, what would be one thing to just increase connection without creating an existential crisis? Without him turning to you and saying, What are you doing? No, just one next loving, affectionate touch.
Erica Bove, MD (41:48)
That's a great idea. And I think the permission, right? You've just given everybody permission to do that and just experimenting and trying something a little bit different and seeing seeing what happens.
Alexandra (42:01)
Yes, and I think there's a lot of context in our conversation and you're listening, you're a smart woman, it's gonna feel like you wanna give some explanations. I think this is probably an episode that if you feel it's relevant for you and you want to implement what we've been talking about, it's a really good one to have a date.
And
on your date, listen to the episode together. And by the way, don't do it like a good high achieving student where you start at the beginning and you stop at the end. Go ahead and you know, three minutes in, if something comes up or it makes you think of something, or you just start crying, or you start laughing, like let it let it be like inspiring connection.
Not to listen from start to finish so that you get all of the content. I do think that you want to listen to the whole thing together, but you know, if it happens over four sittings, great. The point is not to absorb all the content, the point is to bring more sensual presence and connection into this phase of your marriage.
Erica Bove, MD (43:21)
And I think that's absolutely beautiful. And and maybe that's the access point. You know, I I'm thinking of the objections of my people, right? As they're listening. Like you said, maybe people just let this go. And I would love to do another episode in more depth on, okay, well, how do we even have this? Because this is not in a vacuum, right? This is this is in the context of a fertility journey, which is usually not going well. And people feel threatened with something that they've wanted more than anything.
is to become parents. People tell me, and I get chills thinking about this, like we've always known that we wanted to be parents. When I met my husband, I just knew what a great father he was going to be. A lot of people, I ask people their deepest why, we know why they're still on this journey, not judgmentally, but like, you know, really help me
Alexandra (44:04)
Yes, of course.
Erica Bove, MD (44:05)
understand what the motivation is so that we can use that to dig deep when the times get hard. That's always very useful in my practice is to understand people's motivations. And a lot of it
many times is related to how much people want to see their partners as a father. And there often is a, you know, unity and a I want to be a mom too and all those things. But, you know, this is it's it's it's so beautiful but also so painful how much this has always been part of the vision for so many people. And then when this is all happening, then it challenges the identity and everything. And and I have seen, I mean, this this fertility journey can either become an opportunity for more closeness
You know, as we've been describing, people turn towards each other and it's you and me versus infertility, not you you know, you versus me. But other times it can really drive a wedge in relationships. And I've even seen people get divorced over this. It's very painful. And and even people stay in relationships longer than they want to because they're worried about not being able to generate more embryos because of their age at that point and things like that. So a big interest of mine is how can we, if possible,
get people back on the same page because many people say, well, I just can't warm up to my husband because you know, he thinks we shouldn't spend any more money on this. And I really feel that we need to do at least one more cycle, or I really want to do donor egg IVF, and he's opposed to that. Like these big, big, big decisions. And big this context I think sometimes can get in the way of this sensual flow and connection.
Alexandra (45:43)
Yes, and I think you've outlined that so well, like the painfulness of it, and also that this is an opportunity to really dial in the quality of your connection, including sensual connection, but also we haven't really addressed it directly, but in so many ways.
every part of this conversation has to do with improving and up leveling the communication also so that there isn't confusion and there's just more ease and acceptance. That all of that makes the challenging decisions, whether you're on the same page or the places where you're not, all of those navigations benefit tremendously from
Not just being on the same team, although I fully agree with that, but feeling fulfilled, feeling close with one another as partners.
Erica Bove, MD (46:55)
It's beautiful. And I think that deserves perhaps a full other conversation. But I I think that, like you said, there's context to these things and to address that as well. And I maybe it's that we say we're gonna let that go and we're gonna focus on the moment and the pleasure and and what can we do and how can we reconnect. It's both and and how can we carve out space to have these higher level conversations to make these really important decisions together.
Alexandra (47:23)
Yeah, because to state again the obvious but we sometimes forget, having moments of wonderful sensual connection, having moments of really hard, deep conversations, neither of those ever will detract from the journey. They will only enhance it.
Erica Bove, MD (47:50)
So true. Amazing. I think we need to end, even though we could talk for hours.
Alexandra (47:55)
Okay.
Erica Bove, MD (47:57)
This is so so rich, so so rich. And I just want to emphasize what you said about there are no rules against pleasure.
Yes, we have rules.
Alexandra (48:08)
That's right. Rules against
ejaculation are completely different than rules against pleasure.
Erica Bove, MD (48:11)
Yes, yes, yes,
yes. So and I I always say that, you know, people are like, But my ovaries are big and they're gonna get bumped and they're gonna rupture and like all these fear-based things. It's really hard to mess it up. And how can we focus on intimacy? How can we put focus on pleasure? How can we remove the goal, so to speak? And you know, maybe the goal is to connect and to have a pleasurable experience together and to receive. We are so it is a skill.
For us high achieving women, it is such a skill to to disarm and receive and have that time. But it it in many ways there's nothing more important that we can do. and let's cultivate that as well. So, Dr. Alexandra, is there anything else that you would like our listeners to hear in relation to this topic today?
Alexandra (49:03)
Well, I know that there isn't anybody else really that I'm aware of talking about this the way that I do. And since we've already talked about doing another episode together, I really wanna invite you, if you have a question or a topic or a theme that you wanna cover more, or you've shared this episode with your husband and he has things to say, like whatever it is, go ahead and
contact Dr. Erica, you can you can say how to find you and we will be sure to include that in this next conversation because the only reason you, Erica and I are doing this is in order to benefit people. So if there's something that we could expand on and then it would be more valuable for you, just let us know since we're gonna record again.
Erica Bove, MD (49:57)
Yeah, and you can send me a DM on Instagram or Facebook. You can email me at loveand sciencefertility at gmail dot com. any of those places will work. I even have a form submission on my website. So always, always gearing our conversations towards what is most impactful and useful to our listeners. Dr. Elzetter, where can people find you?
Alexandra (50:19)
Alexandrestockwell dot com is my website. And from there you can find all of my social media links. I'm pretty active on Instagram at the intimacydoctor or at intimacydoctor. You can find my book, Uncompromising Intimacy, My Podcast, My App, all of the things. And if you wanna have a conversation with me, you can fill out the contact form. But all of that is at alexandrastockwell.com.
Erica Bove, MD (50:47)
Beautiful. Thank you, Dr. Elzandra. It's just I mean, I'm just so humbled by our connection and our friendship and our collaborations. It is so important to have these conversations and I know that you are making the world a more pleasurable, more connected place by being even in the last week, my my my coaching clients have shared so many beautiful examples of the impact that you've had in their lives, which just brings me so much joy. So thank you for being here and to my listeners.
As always, you know how much I love you. Until the next time. Bye.
