An Unexpected Path to Family Building with Dr. Sarah Wittry

Dr. Sarah Wittry was just a resident when she realized she and her husband had infertility. In this deeply personal and reflective episode, she shares:

• her initial journey of unsuccessful fertility treatments and deciding to pivot

• the heartache of navigating her fertility journey without emotional support

• being open to many different pathways to parenthood

• how she wished she had discovered self compassion sooner

• her experience with IVF towards the end of her journey

• how she grounds herself daily to show up for herself and her family with love, emotional awareness and authenticity

I am confident that her story will resonate with you, and that you will feel a little bit less alone.

Guest Details: 

Dr. Sarah Wittry is a hospice palliative physician and certified mind-body coach dedicated to empowering women physicians. She balances a rich family life with her passions for yoga, books, travel, and engaging in deep conversations over good coffee. Sarah's holistic approach to well-being inspires those around her to find harmony in both their personal and professional lives. She specializes in stress resilience, emotional regulation and nervous system regulation.

As always, please keep in mind that this is my perspective and nothing in this podcast is medical advice.

If you found this conversation valuable, book a consult call with me using this link:

https://calendly.com/loveandsciencefertility/discovery-call

Also, be sure to check out our website: loveandsciencefertility.com

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IG: www.instagram.com/loveandsciencefertility

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Please don’t let infertility have the final word. We are here to take the burden from you so that you can achieve your goal of building your family with confidence and compassion. I’m rooting for you always.

In Gratitude,

Dr. Erica Bove

Transcript:
Hello, my loves and welcome back to the Love and Science podcast. I have an amazing guest today. Her name is Dr. Sarah Whitry and you know how passionate I am about physician coaches. She is a physician coach. She also has been through a lot to create her family and so I think sometimes when we're in the thick of it, it can be really, really hard to see that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.

There is a pathway to becoming a parent and Sarah is so generously going to share her story with us today. And, you know, especially from somebody who's also a coach, I think sometimes it's really nice to get that perspective. And so Dr. Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today.

Thank you, Erica. I'm excited to be here.

Absolutely. And so by way of introduction, though, I do want to, you know, give you some accolades here. So for the hive, Dr. Sarah Whitry is a hospice palliative physician, and a certified mind body coach dedicated to empowering women positions. As a mother of four, she balances a rich family life with her passions for yoga, books, travel, and engaging in deep conversations over good coffee. Amen to that sister.

All the good stuff. Sarah's holistic approach to well being

inspires those around her to find harmony in both their personal and professional lives. She specializes in stress, resilience, emotional regulation, and nervous system regulation. So if you've been following me for a while now, you know that I am all about those things. So we are so happy to have you and I'd love to dive in.

Absolutely. Great. Okay, so I don't even know all the details about your fertility story yet, but my understanding is that it started in residency. Is that right? Yes, it was like

second end of second beginning of third year residency. Okay. And so what was your pathway to palliative care. How did you get there? I went through PM&R. Uh-huh. Wow. Okay. Uh-huh. So that was a four-year residency. Yeah. And I was at, yeah, I went out in Seattle, University of Washington for both residency and fellowship. Okay. Wow. That's amazing. Fun fact about me is that when I thought

about leaving my OBJWN residency program, I actually had PM&R interviews lined up. Really?

because that was what I was going to do if I left my programs.

And so somehow the dark side pulled me back.

And I have a great appreciation for PM&R and also very much palliative medicine.

And, you know, along those lines, I really think there's so much to be learned from palliative care as we approach the fertility journey as an aside, because I think that, you know, when we are faced with such uncertainty, when we are faced with a diagnosis that we didn't want or expect or any of those things, I think a lot of the tools that help us along the palliative care journey, I think they also deeply apply to the fertility journey as well.

So, absolutely.

I couldn't agree more.

Yeah.

So, okay, so you are, you are a resident in a PM and R residency out in Washington and tell me tell me your story.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, um, I think, you know, like a lot of us, I was definitely a planner and for family reasons, right?

It was very excited, had always been the type that was like, I can't wait to have kids, but I got to figure out the exact right time.

So I felt like my husband and I were waiting up into the, literally like the month that we were gonna like, stop birth control and start the journey and all of that and just figuring out when it was gonna be out of my really heavy inpatient time.

And so it was like between that time and it was just, I think, Like so many people, right?

Like no one expects infertility.

No one is like, this is what I thought was gonna happen and how it was gonna go for me.

And so it was very much one of those things where I think I thought, well, it'll be a couple months probably, but I will be able to have like this cushion and sort of know I'm gonna have a baby by this time, you know?

And it just, it wasn't working.

And I think also just the, during the time, being super, you know, my schedule is not my own, right?

As a resident.

And so, you know, went into sort of like planning mode and just trying to figure out after the first few months why it wasn't working, right?

And doing all sorts of my own research and then starting to, my anxiety probably kicked in as like why it wasn't working.

And so I felt like it was just this journey of feeling really, really out of control because it wasn't going on our terms, right?

It was a lot of vulnerability because at that time not a lot of other, I think no other residents that I was with were going through, even thinking about a family yet.

And so I felt very, very lonely and didn't have any family there or anything like that.

And so it was very like, I kept it very private for a long time.

And I did seek some medical workup and things like that, like, within-- before the 12 months of trying, right?

And so I knew that that was like a threshold.

But I was like, I just want to know what's going on, and what's wrong with me, and why isn't it working.

So I think I did that at like six months or something like that.

And how old were you at that point?

I would have been late 20s.

2526 maybe. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So you got the work up done. Even

that is just kind of stressful because it's like, okay, what are we going to find? And yes, one reason I love helping women physicians so much is because there is something to be said for crossing the fence into the patient role. Like you said, vulnerability, it is so vulnerable to be a patient. Like when we're so used to all day and every day, twice on Sundays, being the ones giving the care, to then being receiving, you know, it's just like, it's almost something that our brains, they really react badly to that situation.

- Yes.

- You know, being poked and prodded and waiting for results.

And then I'm not saying we should never be patient.

So that's not it.

But for some reason, the way that we're trained, it sort of beats into us that we're like these inhuman beings, you know, that we don't have needs and we never get sick.

And if we do, we work through and like, - The fertility just doesn't play by those rules.

It just doesn't. - It really doesn't.

It really doesn't.

And I can remember like expecting since I said, I had a hard time like sharing with, you know, my colleagues and things about it.

I felt very like ashamed, I think.

And I can remember being at like appointments and asking like the nurses like, where's the emotional support?

Or like, what resources do you give people?

Right? And they were like, I just remember like thinking I was alone 'cause they were like, we don't really have that.

- Right, no for sure, you could find a counselor and I was just like, oh my gosh, like this is crazy that people are going to do this.

And there's just not, there wasn't a lot of support or just stuff that was built in.

This is very much a medical model.

Like here's these labs, here's this ultrasound.

Sorry, it didn't work.

And it was just, yeah, I remember being shocked by that 'cause I guess I just assumed there was gonna be like all sorts of extra support and just tons of people like holding you while you're going through this period, you know?

- Right, and so you're like, okay, well, here we go.

We're gonna keep on working through without the support, which is really hard, yeah.

- Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

- Yeah, so then, okay, so you got through the diagnostic phase and then what happened?

- So they didn't really, I mean, they found like a little bit of a variant version of PCOS and they suggested doing like IUI And I think I did a few of the ultrasounds and maybe even like the medication.

And then I just remember kind of panicking and saying it wasn't gonna work.

And that was to be honest, like I think emotionally, right?

I was just a wreck.

And then just like my stress was so high at that point that the schedule that they were wanting me to come in for appointments and things like that, I was like, that's not gonna work.

Like it's so hard for me to get here this one time.

can't come again tomorrow. And I remember like, yeah, having a lot of times where I was in tears and just know, like, kind of calling it early almost, right? Because I was like, it's not the stage of my life is not conducive to this kind of intensity of need for a visit. And I also think like, looking back, it was just a lot of fear, like fear that I was going to put all that in and it wasn't going to work. So yeah, I kind of withdrew from that. My husband and I just decided it wasn't the right time to pursue that. And I, I, we started looking into like different ways of adoption at that point, which I know like looking back, I was like, gosh, that was really early, right? It wasn't even a full year. But I think, I think it was, I think it was such a strong expectation, right, that we were going to be parents and it was almost like this like panic, like, okay, well, if it's not this, then how else and how do we do it? And we had been a couple, we had been a couple that had actually talked about adoption, like, you know, when we first were dating, honestly. And so it was just, it was just going to be on our terms, right? It was going to be like, we have a couple of kids, then we adopt a kid or two, you know, and so it was very much, Yeah, like life was just not cooperating with our plans. But we did ultimately become foster parents in Washington. And that was like a nine month process, I believe. So I said, it's like

very similar to a pregnancy. You're like, well, I don't have time for infertility treatments, but I think I'm just gonna sign myself up for the adoption process. Yeah, I've got all these

classes on weekends, right? And that was just, yeah, it was a whole other thing. But we did, we did go through that process and like learned a ton and you know got really, I guess it led us to be pretty big advocates of you know foster care and learn about so much of like attachment trauma and just early childhood trauma and stuff but I guess I wasn't I wasn't totally I knew about but just very very surface level right. Yes. Okay so you got into foster care I love mine. And then we got licensed for foster care and they told we had to like tell them an age range, right, of like what kind what age of child would be willing to have as a placement. And I believe we said like zero to six or something like that. But they were very much told us that it was probably going to be a toddler or like at the upper range, right, because a lot of people want, you know, the infants and are hoping for a baby often when they are going through infertility and then they become foster parents. So I think we were mentally prepared for any age, but probably like a toddler or young school age. But like it was maybe a week or so after we got licensed and fully could could take a placement that they called in. And so there was like a three week old that they needed a placement for. So that was a shock. So we went from nothing, right? No parenting things or we didn't have any baby stuff or anything like that, right?

To having to decide, having like 24 hours to decide and then being like, okay, let's get a crib. Let's get all this stuff. And then little guy joined us shortly after and And yeah, it was like fast forward, like super fast forward into parenthood.

Yeah, no way.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

And you were still resident at this point?

Yes.

30-year resident.

Okay.

Wow.

So then how long, I mean, tell me the story about that kiddo.

So you fostered him.

Yeah.

And then what happened?

So he actually, we didn't have like parental visits.

You know, like with foster care, the goal is always to reunify the kiddo with, with biologic family, even if it's not parents, if it's like an aunt or a cousin or a grandparent.

We unfortunately, his parents did not, were not able to like kind of be able to meet the requirements that the state will say.

And so his case was more expedited than a lot of foster kids.

like the termination of parental rights and all that occurred like before age one and so we were able to have him and have the official like adoption when he was about 13 months old.

And now he is nine years old. Oh my gosh. So that was your initial popular parenthood was your first kiddo through faster parent than adoption and also very quickly because you were - Exactly.

- Yeah.

- Wow.

- It was wild.

- That must have been a wild ride.

And I'm so glad that you have him.

You know, it was amazing.

- No, he's a wonderful, wonderful kid.

- Yeah.

So then, so tell me then what happened.

So, at what point did you say, okay, like, he is fantastic.

We have so much love to give.

Let's build our family.

- Right, right.

So we, I mean, I think we were, we felt plenty busy, right?

Like having an infant and being, My husband was getting his PhD, I was in residency, so we had enough stuff to do, but we really just were not actively trying to conceive, but also not leaving it out of the possibility, like it wasn't on birth control, anything like that.

And actually when Asher was just before his first birthday or so, I missed period and I really wasn't even tracking it And then I was, I just remember like it was so far out of the realm, like I remember my husband saying something and I was like, no, I don't think that could be possible, right?

Like he was like, well, you haven't had it for a long time.

And I was like, but, but it doesn't work.

Like, you know, we're not, we're struggling in that area, right?

Like it's, no, right?

Like you put yourselves in the category, like we're infertile.

So, no.

Yeah, yeah.

Totally, totally.

And so then, yeah, I ended up finally taking a pregnancy test and then being pregnant.

So we had our son, our second son was born about, when I was sure it was about 19 months.

And that was really, yeah, a shock, definite shock.

Right.

Right.

Also kind of that mind, you know, like you think your body is one way and then like that's sort of re coming to, like I was talking about the nervous system.

emotional regulation, like all the feelings to work through with that.

You know, obviously a part of you feels joyful, but then a part of you probably feel like blindsided and unprepared and totally, totally.

Again, in the beginning you said you wanted this on your terms, like this doesn't sound like.

Yes, no.

It sounds like.

Like the entire.

Yes, yes, the entire journey has been like very much an exercise in helping me understand how much I want to have control and how little control I actually have.

That's a great point, my friend.

Yeah.

Yeah, like being open to, it's like a lesson I learned again and again and again, right?

That I need to like just try to let go and be open or be receptive to like what is, what is?

Oh, but isn't that the hardest thing?

And I just, I think you talk about this particular thing for hours.

I mean, how do we go from being, you know, these sort of type A, you know, which has is two sides of that coin, right?

Like these type A high achieving successful people who are paid to prevent disasters.

I mean, that is like, what we're paid to do in our doctor role is like steps ahead and like anticipate all the bad things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

This is hyper vigilance is like what we're paid to do.

How do we then take something like infertility, which is we want so deeply, right?

Like for many of us, like our deepest desires to become a parent in life.

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

So how can we then take that sort of wiring that we have and then say, you know what, I think, I think I've worked hard enough at this.

I think it's time to let go, which doesn't mean that anybody's journey looks the same for some people that might be continuing treatments, but with a different spirit.

Right.

But like, if I could just bottle this up, you know, how do we, How do we surrender? What did that look like for you?

Well, Erica, I did not have those skills at that point at all.

I felt I can't explain why I ended up getting pregnant spontaneously then.

And if I fast forward, later, I ended up going through IVF for another child.

So it's like it wasn't even one and done then.

Or like, okay, now everything works perfectly.

So I think I honestly like looking back, I was in such a state then of like for sure survival and for sure just like if I remember my mindset was just like if I do X, Y and Z, it should work right and so it wasn't like I had learned the art of surrender at all at that point.

Like I was trying to micromanage everything in my life.

Maybe you were tired from having an 11-month-old and maybe you know maybe like maybe you only had, again, who knows, we'll never know.

But like, you know, but there is something like people say, okay, why is that when people adopt, there seems to be an increase in fertility.

Why is it when people, even this is fascinating, I don't know if you know the statistic, when people make their first appointment with an REI, you see an uptick in the conceptions.

And it's like, there's something about sort of the break on fertility.

And again, I think there's many factors, there's probably hundreds of factors.

and stress is an anxiety or just one.

But I think that the more and more we can embrace what you said, which is like the things that we think we have control over, we actually largely don't.

And so how can we live the best we can and say, okay, well, maybe this isn't all up to me and I'm going to live my healthiest, best life, hope for the best, think of many possibilities and keep moving forward.

- Yes, totally, totally.

I think gosh, so much to be said with just, I remember being really angry at people almost for saying, like you'll probably get pregnant once you adopt.

I remember like that, 'cause you hear that all the time.

And I was like, that's so stupid and that's really insulting to people, right?

- It is insulting, yeah.

- Yeah, it is.

And then when it happened, when or when we were like preparing for adoption and then got pregnant, like I was obviously excited, but I remember also being like, this doesn't, this not, we didn't do anything different.

And it's almost like a part of me felt like very guilty, right?

For sort of, I didn't do anything different.

I didn't go through treatment.

It was like, and I don't think my stress levels could have been that low.

So I don't know what happened, but to be honest, but it's just like, I think that, yeah, looking back and then just like how I support people now and the kind of huge need I see, right, is for just that validation and that reassurance almost that like you're not doing anything wrong, right?

But I just remember like, yeah, that feeling of, gosh, no matter what I do, I can't control this outcome is very, very messy place to be for people like us.

- Very messy.

Yes, it is very, very, very messy.

Yes, and then we do all the things that then stem from that to like try and gain control or try and go down the level hole or try and do whatever we can.

Maybe it's numbing, maybe it's, you know, all the different things we do because those emotions are so complex.

And, you know, before I started this whole coaching journey, I think some part of me thought my feelings would kill me.

Like I just put yourselves, we overwork, you know, I think there was like a light bulb moment and you probably have had this too when you realized, Oh, you know, that is in air quotes, just a feeling.

Like it feels pretty awful right now, but that feeling is actually not gonna kill me.

And that's what I think the fertility journey is.

You know, I think the more we can befriend our feelings, you're like, oh, that shame showing up again.

Huh, wonder why now?

What's, you know, why today?

Okay, shame, let's have a conversation.

Or like maybe it's frustration or anger or, you know, the things people say, like there's so many intense emotions.

I think the more we can say, gosh, it makes sense I'm angry right now.

Anybody else would feel angry in response to that highly intensive comment.

So let me feel those feelings and then not let them steal what they don't need to steal.

And then keep on moving forward, right?

- For sure, for sure.

Because and also it's just like, there's this huge role for self-compassion throughout the journey.

And it feels almost impossible to access at times, right?

Because it's very much like, well, my body's not doing what it's supposed to.

and I don't feel loving toward myself.

I feel very inherently flawed or something like that.

I remember that being very prevalent and just impacting-- - Right, the inner critic is so-- - Oh, totally.

- That's so loud.

- Yeah.

- So loud.

And then just how it trickles into your relationships.

And I'm really thankful that there's a lot more conversation, but I still think it's shrouded, right?

It's like a thing where people just, when they're going through it, they feel like it's hard to share different parts and it's hard to share, especially if it's like a prolonged journey.

I think it's just like people don't know how to receive support.

I think women physicians struggle a lot to receive the support when there's no like guarantee of an outcome and there's no like in date, there's no arriving to a certain point.

- Totally, totally.

We're, you know, and this is also what I've learned is that when we are sort of in the giving of care, of gifts, of time, of advice, it's the giver who has the control, right?

And so if we think about when we are the receiver, it's a much more vulnerable state.

And the way that the universe works is that it's this constant flow of giving and receiving.

The more we give, the more we then can receive, but we need to be open to it.

And so that's another thing that I help a lot of people understand is that this does not mean that you're weak.

This does not mean that you just couldn't cut it on your own.

It means that these sorts of problems are not meant to be dealt with in isolation.

These problems are not meant, and people are not meant to suffer in silence, that we are truly stronger together.

And the more that we can offer support and celebrate the winds collectively and diffuse the bad news and the burdens collectively, it just makes for such a better experience.

but it's a completely different mindset shift from how we have been acculturated throughout this whole medical process.

And so it's, I think that's, we just have to remember that again, infertility is not played by the same roles.

We need a different playbook.

- We really, really do.

We really do.

- Okay, so I'm curious.

So we're talking about self-compassion, which is one of my favorite things to talk about.

When did you discover, did you discover self-compassion as you were building your family or did that come later?

- Yeah, I mean, okay, so just to add, I'm not trying to like spend too much time on my story, but it's like there's just different parts of it that I feel like where it pulled in more, right?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- And so I mean, I had some very small degree having the first two kiddos and kind of just juggling like infant and toddler and all that, but it definitely came in almost as a necessity when we said yes of fostering a six year old girl when we had a newborn and a toddler. So yep, yep. And, and, you know, she had had a significant amount of childhood trauma coming in to joining our family. And so it was that, I mean, honestly, still like parenting her, you know, seven years later has been the catalyst for the most personal growth that I've had. And it's like, wow, self self compassion became like, basically, like a life support for me, right? Because I very quickly learned like, the parenting her is not going to be the same as parenting these, you know, kiddos from birth, and, you know, just so much, so much complexity and brought up all sorts of stuff in me that was stuff I didn't really want to look at, you know, like it was stuff that I had suppressed or had, I don't know, not had to deal with. So very much like, when things weren't working, and when there was a lot of dysregulation, and there was a lot of conflict and like, behaviors that were just really challenging and really triggering. That's when I had to really, really get support and dial in myself compassion practices because it was like no amount of, you know, structure or like a perfect parenting formula or anything is going to make this just all of a sudden be better or easier. Like it was like, you got the only way out and not even out but like the only way to like some through keys or true is like through it. Yeah. So I was like, Oh my gosh, it really, it really led me to needing to like get on a whole different level of being able to understand my emotions, to be able to give myself like that deep, deep compassion on or like the grief of the process, the grief of, you know, what almost like what you envision your family to be and then what it is. And it's on it to be honest and vulnerable, like it still is a practice that I have to, I have to go through each day because you know that those deep deep wounds from that early period of life and how that manifests in a family unit is like and gets its ongoing lifelong work but it's like without self-compassion I feel that I would be in a very different place right now.

Wow that is so powerful and thank you so much for sharing and I you know I think that I'm imagining the dynamics and I'm imagining in my own parenting journey, I've found that neurodiversity, for instance, has been my greatest teacher. I resonate a lot with what you're saying just in terms of how we do need to look at ourselves. We do need to look at, oh, it shouldn't be this way.

Oh, that's interesting. It's like, oh, interesting. You think that thought.

I know. Because this is how it is. And I think that a lot of the things that I try to tell my clients and my patients as I'm trying to help them to parenthood, right? Is that parenthood is not an end in itself? It's a beginning and fertility is just the access point. So if we can learn self-compassion along the way, guess what?

Then that will be something that we can give ourselves as we're parenting, but then also pass on to the next generation.

Absolutely. It's beautiful.

It is a daily practice of grounding and coming home to ourselves. And what struck me as you were talking about your journey is that you really did need to learn how to Reparent yourself, you know the little thing in there who had those wounds that were unresolved. I mean you didn't have to do that You could have stayed mired in old patterns or you know chosen really destructive habits to avoid that pain But you chose the courageous authentic way, which was to really look at it and say, okay What do I have to learn here?

How do I need to change?

What supports do I need?

How can I show up for myself and her and these other kids whose world has been rocked, you know, and your husband?

Like I see it, I see it.

And it's so powerful because I think there's no there there.

Right.

We talk about that.

And, and everything that we do in coaching, there's no waste because it always manifests in a different way.

So thank you very much for sharing.

Yeah, so much sense. Yeah. Okay, so go ahead, go ahead. Oh, I don't know if there's anything else. I think it was just sort of like, part of my journey and my like, you know, working on my own stuff and healing has been really to not focus as much on like comparative suffering, if that makes sense. So part of me still feels guilty, right, that I was able to have a baby and some people are never able to get pregnant, right?

And I know that other parts of my story are the challenges that I've had, right?

And the things that are, yeah, really just like continually teaching me.

So in other words, like trying to compare like my life and my parenting journey to other people and be like, well, it's not as bad as them or this, and even now, right?

I compare, sometimes I still compare like other parenting of adopted kids and kind of like, well, these behaviors are not as bad or these are worse.

Or, you know, and it's just, it really doesn't, it doesn't serve me or it doesn't serve us well to do that.

But I guess it's just also like compassion and that makes sense why you're doing that is because it's like, you just want, you just, I think at the end of the day, we all just want to know like our emotional experience of what's happening, like what the reality is, right?

Is it matters and it's like, it's valid.

And I think that's like something that just is so hard in the infertility journey is that it can feel so hard to just not compare.

And it's not.

- I have a saying, I say the 11th commandment should be that I shall not compare.

- Yes.

- Yes, totally.

- But it is so true.

I mean, it is so true that like we need to focus on our own experience.

And you know, one question that comes up for me sometimes and I share this with my group is like, am I doing it right?

Am I doing it right?

I think we want some external validation that we are doing it right.

And I think as long as we're doing it authentically, and courageously, and in alignment with our values, then that is the answer, right?

It's like, no, there's just one way, one path, one formula to this arrival place.

It's like, am I living each day in alignment with my values?

Am I showing up with love?

Those are the more powerful questions, I think.

when that, you know, self doubt voice comes in and tries to tell us to compare or start using those like data driven metrics.

For sure.

For sure.

I definitely think that's true.

Okay.

So I now need to know you said you went through IVF.

So yeah, tell me, tell me that process because you're like, you know what, I think, you know, our family is not yet complete.

I think let's do this.

One more.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

after training and we had moved from Washington to Ohio and started like our careers, our big kid jobs, you know, all those.

And I guess getting used to family life and I think that like for a lot of different reasons, we thought that we wanted one more to complete the family.

And so it was one of the, it was like a re traumatization though to go through that process because it was again, you know, part of me was like, well, hopefully it'll just be easy, right?

be like when I want it to be again, right? And it wasn't, it wasn't. And so I guess it would be like some form of secondary infertility. And we were, we're in a different place. And so because we were pretty confident that we wanted to have one more, and we are financially and logistically more able to pursue fertility treatments, we just did it quicker. And I also feel like I was just in a different place emotionally, right, to be able to kind of access that and navigate through some of that. And so we did kind of skip through anything waiting or IUI or any other like method and just jumped into IVF. And, you know, so that was like, a lot, a lot to process in terms of emotionally going through that is like, again, this shouldn't be happening right again, they're kind of like resisting like what is but also being grateful that we had, you know, the chance to do that we were able to afford it and it was, it was a smooth experience for us thankfully to be able to go through and obviously I think there's still a lot there and again I was like, kind of disappointed by like the of resources for like the emotional aspects of it again, like in our traditional system, right?

And I think again, like even going through it and kind of knowing all the things and having kids and stuff, it's just, I feel like it would be nice for people to have more support going through it.

Because again, you're just, even as like a physician and as a person that kind of knows all all the ins and outs, it's like, you're still a human, right?

And it's still like, very scary and uncertain and there's a lot happening to your body. And, um, yeah, I think just when you're, when you're in it, there needs to be more help.

There needs to be more, there needs to be more. Yes. Absolutely.

And that's, that's what I do at Love and Sciences, you know, provide that safe, supportive community. And some people are there for the groups and that's like their core. Some people want the one on one coaching as well and in different ways to structure it. But I think my goal is that every single person who works with me will get the support that they deserve and that we bridge each other. It's not just me. It's the whole community. We bridge each other to parenthood. We keep in touch and you know, it's really a beautiful thing. It is challenging because I think sometimes it's like, wait, she joined after I did and it's working out for her, but I'm still here and you know, we know all of that. But I think that too, it's the number one prerequisite is that we have a safe supportive community that we that really again that comparison we just say you know everyone builds their family in the time that is that little soul who's meant to be yours.

Sometimes it takes longer sometimes it takes less time we don't understand exactly why but every single person has that desire in their heart for a reason and we bring together together, together. That's beautiful. What an amazing mission. Yeah, no, it's so and I, I wish you had had the support that you needed. I really wish you had had that support. And I think it's also helpful for you to say to other people, you know, we now live in a time where there is that support. Yes, go get yourself that support, you know, there is like a therapist or me as a coach or maybe it's a support group. I mean, there's such a variety, like it really is so different than having on which clinic you're in or whatever. But the support that you need and deserve because I do I personally think it shortens the time enough treatment because you know our whole nervous system is different and it just feels better and then the people who graduate then have a whole new set of tools that improve their marriages, improve their work boundaries, improve you know, their parenting and all life. So that's, that's, yeah.

I would say like without a shadow of a doubt, right? If you're going through it, if you're early, if you're in the middle of it, if you're, you know, years into it, like, and you don't have support because you feel like you like can do it yourself, like, no, no, like, it will feel so much better and you'll feel so much just, yeah, like love and support from others. And, uh, yeah, I wish I would I feel very, very passionate about is that like anyone going through it.

I tell them that all the time, like just get help early on because because your partner is like in it with you, right?

And it's like they can't be you can't be to their support. You're both feeling like you're drowning Your family's I mean, yeah, a lot of family members don't know how to support you, right?

It's just they're too close to you and so They can't kind of see a little bit more perspective and but there's definitely people that care and have you know A lot of compassion like you that would be lovely, lovely to have on your journey.

Thank you. Um, thank you so much. And I, you know, I love the fact that you have built your family in a way that, you know, you were open to the possibilities. And I always tell people, you know, be open, you never know how this is going to happen. And the people who I do think do eventually have the most success building their families are the people to expand their view and say, okay, well, maybe it could look a little different than I, you know, I always say, we're not working with a strong clan here.

We've dished that long ago.

This is about, you know, which family is meant to be mine and that whole process.

So one thing that we had talked about discussing ahead of time was what it's like to parent in a family where, you know, sort of the children came from different origins.

So there's some adoptive children, there's some bio children, you know, What is that dynamic like and how have you navigated that?

- Yeah, well, that's like a question.

It's like, I think it's just always evolving, but I think one of the main tenants that we've had and kind of held onto is just that, just like every child has different needs, right?

It's just like a different level.

And it's always just been a part of our conversation.

So, you know, adoption and just how families come together and how they look differently and all the diversity that can be part of that has always been day one, we've just been normalizing it, right? And talking about it and really allowing for their emotional expression as they are navigating different ages and like stages of development and like the dynamics between them. And I just think we're very, very attuned to that. And then another big thing that we have learned a lot from some professionals and some really great like trauma-informed therapist is just all about like how we we parent with using like brain-based behaviors right and really like normalizing that for the kids who see let's say like our oldest has probably the most behavioral issues right and just really normalizing kind of that not being all of her but rather like a part of her brain getting hijacked right and going into like we We call it like watchdog mode or possum mode or things like that.

And it's really just a way for, for kids to be able to understand like why someone is behaving in a certain way and how that affects the family dynamic.

Um, and then, you know, normalizing, like, so it's not, um, shaming, right?

As far as like why they're behaving a certain way.

And I think that when we use that with all of our kids, right, then they are all like very equipped in that language and it's just, it's not as like traumatic for them. And I think it's helped them a lot just to understand other kids better like at school and in their you know environments and everything they don't think of it as like oh this is a bad kid or this is like a there's just like oh their watchdog brain is really strong right um and so it's just like some of that some of that an emotional a lot of like emotional um teaching I think has been really really instrumental for them and for us and really to like normalize it for us as well right? Like when we get stressed, when we get angry, like having that with a cycle of like rupture, repair, rupture, repair, and how that's normal in relationships. And it's like, that's how we show consistency and love over time is like that we just have that and we are able to come back together. So those are like some basic principles of what we're trying to do.

I mean, that was a masterclass in and of itself, Sarah. I mean, just how lucky is your family to to be getting this education from such an early age.

And, you know, I think about emotional intelligence and how important that is to navigate the world.

And that's why people come to you as a coach and why people come to me sometimes is to build that muscle.

And I think when we, I mean, you know, first of all, to create this culture takes accountability.

So we have to like keep working on ourselves in that regard and like noticing our own brains when they do interesting things.

But then I think just like having that as such a value, I think just emanates, you know, from your family into the whole community.

And it's just, it's so very beautiful.

So thank you for sharing that.

That's amazing.

You know, I think it's also, like you said, like, you know, families don't look just one way and families are created in many different ways.

And to embrace that diversity and to say like, it doesn't have to be, you know, there's no, there's no like definition of like, this is the, this is the ideal family or this is how families are made or whatever.

like there's so many pathways and so much richness.

And I think the more we can embrace that, I think that better off we all will be.

- Yeah, absolutely, absolutely.

Just being open to it, right?

And just like, not that you're signing up for anything, but just like expanding your horizon a little bit and your perspective of like how families are built, I think can be really another exercise and like releasing some of the control of like what it's supposed to be.

- Yeah, and like what is parenthood even?

like, you know, like, does it, is it, is it necessary that the DNA is ours? Is it not like, you know, I think we come in with all these stories that need some, you know, untangling, right? And so that's what I love to do, especially when people have crossroads in their journeys is to say, okay, well, like, what is your deepest why here? And what are the stories, what are the limiting beliefs, and how can we put it all together with a plan that feels aligned?

Yes. Yes. Well, our time has come to a close. Is there anything else you want our listeners to hear from you about your journey, about what you wish existed, like anything that's still on your heart? It's okay if there's nothing. I just like to provide a space. Yeah. Gosh, I don't, I mean,

I think we've talked about a lot of it, but I would say like to reiterate, you know, the The truest thing and the most valuable thing is, I believe, sounds really cliche, but taking care of yourself and not just in theory, but in practice.

And it's really just not as a thing to check off your list as you're going through it.

Did I get my self-care time in?

It's really just like, what are you doing and how are you asking yourself what you need And are you honoring that?

Because it's a long journey, right?

And there's no guarantees and all of that.

And so it's like just honoring those emotions as they come up and tending to them and being gentle with yourself is like, I think worth its weight in gold because I don't think many of us know are very familiar with that.

We do it a lot for others, but we don't do it very well for ourselves.

And so it's like an exercise in growing that and just like keeping that at the forefront and being super, super committed to it because it will always pay you back, right?

And it will, you're the one relationship like you're always gonna have, right?

And so, yeah.

- I think in building that self-compassion muscle often.

- Yes.

- Yes.

- 'Cause you know, as I think about it, we are in these constant cycles of rupture and repair with ourselves.

And I think that self-compassion is the medicine that helps us, you know, heal those ruptures and repairs to keep us on the path we need to be.

- Interesting. - Absolutely.

- Wow.

Okay, so you're an amazing coach.

You're an amazing physician.

Where can people find you?

- Yeah, so you can go to my website.

It is vibranthumanssarawitri, my full name, dot com.

I'm also pretty active on Instagram, which is just my full name and LinkedIn.

So those are kind of the best places.

- Okay, go find her.

I think you heard the richness of all of this And, you know, just in terms of like being a physician, trying to make it all work.

I have some lawyers, engineers.

I don't mean to just focus on physicians, you know, our high achieving professional women who are listening to this podcast.

Go find her, go, go follow her on Instagram now, stat, as we say, in medicine.

And you will not regret it.

And thank you, Sarah, for sharing your journey so generously.

Many times I teared up, many, many times I was moved and I cannot wait to listen again because I know your story and your perspective are going to help so many people.

Thank you so much, Erica. It was really nice to talk with you.

Absolutely. Until the next time and goodbye my loves. See you soon.