Practical Strategies to Feel Better Now with Dr. Kathy Gibney

What is the hardest part about forgiving ourselves? How can we better support physicians navigating trauma and burnout?

Join us as we welcome the insightful and inspiring Dr. Kathy Gibney, a mentor, friend, and PhD psychologist whose career spans decades of dedication to physician wellness. Dr. Kathy shares her wisdom on the emotional landscape of medicine and the powerful simplicity of genuine human connection.

Topics we discuss: 

• Building relational trust in medicine

• Addressing moral injury and stigma

• Forgiving and celebrating ourselves

• Filling our personal well

• Unlearning the doctor identity

This conversation illuminates the essential path toward reclaiming our lives and humanity, reminding us that we are always more than our titles.

Guest Details: 

Kathleen C Gibney, PhD, Licensed Psychologist, Diplomat of the American Board of Professional Psychologists

Kathy is retired now and finding she is busy and happy spending time “doing whatever she likes.” Her last full-time position was as the Director of The Center for Physician Wellbeing at AdventHealth Orlando. The Center focused on providing counseling & coaching, consulting, education, and collegial opportunities to physicians and mid-level practitioners and their families for the nine central region Florida Hospitals. She has been a keynote speaker and workshop presenter at conferences and retreats. Her past experiences have increased her passion and appreciation for the personal and professional journeys of individuals and the stories those adventures write in people’s hearts. She has been a mentor and consulting professional dedicated to walking with others on this challenging journey of living and thriving.

As always, please keep in mind that this is my perspective and nothing in this podcast is medical advice.

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In Gratitude,

Dr. Erica Bove

Transcript:

Hello, my loves, and welcome back to the Love and Science podcast.

I have a distinguished guest today.

She is a mentor.

She is a friend, and I truly cannot wait to have the conversation we're about to have.

This is Dr. Kathy Gibney.

I will give you her introduction so that you know all of her accolades, but I just can't stress enough what a dear friend she is, how much I admire her life wisdom.

She's on my vision board daily when I meditate and think about how I want to be in the world.

And I just know that we're going to gain so much wisdom and love from our conversation today.

So, welcome Dr. Kathy and let me introduce you.

I'm so happy to be here.

Okay.

Thank you.

Absolutely.

Okay.

So, Dr. Gibney, she received her doctoral training in psychology at Northeastern University.

So, she is a PhD psychologist.

And she also worked at BU where she got her clinical training and at the Center for Multicultural Psychology.

She was a clinician there and a teaching fellow.

I did not know this until I read her bio, but her early work focused on trauma in families, specifically when someone was murdered.

And since those beginnings, she's worked in a variety of clinical settings as a psychologist and a clinical supervisor.

She's taught psychology at universities such as the University of Notre Dame, which is where I first met her when I was in college.

the University of Arizona, Boston College, and more.

Most recently, she's now retired, but most recently, her last full-time physician was as the director of the Center for Physician Well-Being at Advent Health in Orlando, where she led a department, the department, through the redesign of services and a renewed focus on preventative care based on relational trust, which I think is amazing.

And so I have witnessed her from Notre Dame all the way through to her most recent clinical endeavor and also in retirement. And I just think your experience being in the wards, seeing the day to day of what life is like for physicians, I think you truly have a unique perspective as a as a coach, as a psychologist, as somebody who really understands.

So thank you so much. I can't wait to talk about all the things psychology, all the things life wisdom and all the integration that we can do. So thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. And it's always funny to hear your biography, like, you know, what your career was and everything. And I truly have been a very fortunate professional. And I, the final job as the director of that center was the culmination of all of the skills I developed. And I just loved it. And it was really a wonderful blessing to end a career working with physicians. It was really life-giving to me and I just carry their story is more than any other with me from my whole career, 40 years in psychology. It's been, it was really a wonderful way to end my career. Wow. And I was so surprised that, I mean not surprised in a way like, you know, that I, I just didn't know that you had started your career with such a trauma focus. And I remember just hearing your stories over the years. And then the fact that you would end your career, sort of your working career. Obviously, our careers keep evolving. Working with physicians, when there's so much trauma in medicine these days, it's almost like full circle. It's like, where do we come from? Where are we going? All of those things. So can you tell us a little bit about your experience at that particular job? Because I think it's especially relevant for our conversation. What was it like? What were you asked to do? What did you learn? Yes.

What it was asked to do was the woman who had come before me and brought me on board was a psychologist who had a lot of just passion for helping physicians navigate through how medicine had changed and the requirements that they were put in, the places and just the whole idea of how do we create relationships with a group of professionals who have really been taught that they should not share their emotional trauma with anyone that they're kind of expected to just hold everything that they experience and figure it out on their own and that there was so much pride attached to being strong. And trying to connect with them was really what I found to be the most challenging in the beginning and the most rewarding and the most fun. Because we just did a lot of different things and the more that I was there she moved on and I was in charge of the department.

And we just did things that, you know, I get calls from the physicians that I worked with now saying, oh my gosh, please come back, we miss you.

We did a lot of fun things, and we did a lot of just growing things.

There's always, we did retreats, and we did family trips where the entire family went on trips together.

We went on skiing trips, we went on cruise together.

And we did a lot, I did workshops constantly in the hospital.

I rounded with physicians, so I could see when they would say, you know, I'm having a difficult time with this part of my practice.

I would go to the private offices, I'd go to rounds in the hospital.

I was everywhere and it was so wonderful.

The first thing that I think really broke the ice for me was when I went into just the cafeteria and I had to beg to have permission to get into the physician lounge.

And I just kept, you know, forcing it on the leadership saying, you know, this is where they're there. This is their private space. And I'm going to go in there. I'm not going to intrude.

I'm going to join. And so I would just go in and be present and start having conversations. And I knew that I had finally accomplished what I wanted one time when I was in there. And I was sitting with with just one other physician we were chatting and all of a sudden there was a table of physicians, I don't know, two or three tables over and one of them stood up and started waving, "Cathy, Cathy, come here, we need your advice." And I went over and it was just a question about when they had teenagers and they wanted some suggestions about their kids.

And I, and then at the end of it, one of them stood up and gave me a hug and I was like, "Oh my gosh." It was, that was the breakthrough.

And I would say some of our best conversations happened in that cafeteria where it was just spontaneous.

And I would say to people, you don't need to make an appointment to talk to me if you see me in the hall or wherever.

This is just about knowing you're not alone.

- It's so interesting 'cause I think, I mean, my physician hat, like you think, okay, when you see a psychologist, there is almost that fear like, - Yes. - Am I being remediated?

Am I trying to like, are they trying to take away my license?

Like I remember when I went to Columbia for my residency, I was like flag, 'cause you know, we know each other.

You asked me to share my story about my eating disorder at your psychology class and like, I shared that history when I did my intake.

And so I was like flagged as like someone who was like high risk, you know?

And so I think we have to take away the stigma because every single person in medicine needs support, right?

It's not like, are you high risk or you not?

Like whatever it is, like we need to have community.

We need to have collaboration.

We need to have support.

And I think it needs to be normalized, you know?

- Totally, and the thing that really helped me too was that the physician started to invite me to their medical staff meetings, and I would just go in and they'd say to me, "Cathy, just a little something." And so I'd go in and maybe take five minutes at the beginning of the meeting and just tell a story from something that had happened with a physician, either in the cafeteria or walking in the hall, or I just, I have so many rich, short little things that happen.

And one of the ones that really resonated with the, one of the first medical staff meetings that I shared was that I had made a decision when I joined the hospital that, you know, they said, oh, everybody's family and you know, everybody's friendly and all of that.

And I was walking through the halls my first week and I was, you know me.

So I'm making eye contact with everybody and saying good morning, hello, how are you?

I'm getting nothing.

- Yeah, okay.

- Nothing, no eye contact, no nothing.

And I would do it and do it and do it.

And I would constantly say, hello, good morning, whatever.

This one morning I was walking through the hospital and I saw a young doctor coming my way and I said, good morning to him.

And he just was so focused.

And I stopped and turned around and walked next to him.

And I said, good morning, are you okay?

And he just stopped and looked at me.

And he said, can we talk?

I didn't know who he was, he did not know who I was.

And I said, absolutely can talk.

My name is Kathy Gibney and he told me his name and we stepped aside and I said, no, I just wanna know if you're all right.

And he said, I'm not.

- Oh wow.

- And I said, okay, do we wanna go somewhere private?

And there was a little chapel to the side and we sat in there and he told me that at that moment that he was actually suicidal.

- Oh my goodness.

- And we had a long conversation And, you know, we just talked and we were together for a while.

And then I said to him, do you want to talk later today?

And he said, yeah, I think we need to check in.

I said, I agree, let's check in.

So he never knew who I was.

And it was just the fact later on.

I mean, he did very, very well.

It was one of those things where we can be in a moment and anybody can get in a moment like that where you're just overwhelmed.

And that was like, whoa, this is how powerful just connecting with somebody can be.

That's all.

I had seen him, but I didn't know who he was.

So that was something I shared at their medical staff meeting.

And what they all appreciated was that I could share it and gave absolutely no indication of who it was.

No indication, not their specialty, nothing, I just gave a conversation.

And that was the beginning of the real building of trust.

And yes, sometimes the administration would say to me, we want you to meet with so-and-so, and I'd say, remember the rules.

You will not know if I met with them or not, and I will not report to you anything about that meeting.

And the CMO occasionally would call and say, well, I need to know how that person's doing.

I said, well, then you need to ask that person.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

And he would get so frustrated.

But it was the trust.

That was crucial, crucial.

And when I brought new people on board, I said to them, If I ever hear you talking about anybody, the staff, you will be fired on the spot because we cannot afford that.

And I will let people know why you're not here.

So you need to be hyper vigilant about our confidentiality.

- Wow, that's so, so powerful.

I mean, you don't know who's struggling, right?

Ever.

- Ever, but there's always somebody struggling.

- There's always, well, I mean, most, if you look at the data, it's most of us, honestly, and in the medical field right these days, I mean, it's getting harder and harder to show up and take care of patients.

And, you know, I think that the key though is that you asked how he was.

So first of all, you made the connection.

You cared about the response.

It wasn't just like, how are you?

And then you put your own head down.

You noticed he didn't answer.

You followed up, you asked, and you created a safe space for that person.

And I think, you know, that's so much what we're lacking in medicine these days is safe spaces because we feel like, you know, we get bombarded with these emails of how we're not meeting our targets or how our press gaining scores. And it's just like moral defeat after moral defeat after moral defeat. And it's like, most people don't wake up one day and they're suicidal. We know that suicide, I mean, that is epidemic in medicine right now.

And where is everybody on the map? You know, there's a map, right? And it's called mental health. And most people are not doing well. And and people slide. And I think the problem is that people are so isolated from each other. And so what are some ways that you found like once you were able to like break in what are some ways that you help people in the day to day to connect with them to uplift their spirits to just just understand you know I remember some of your stories like what did you find once you were able to break in?

Well I think one of the the things that was helpful was expanding what our scope of practice was So we included family. We did fun things. We also did very applied. It was very practical things.

Some of the doctors, I mean, my reputation became really what they would say. They would call, they would just call like, I'll give you the one example of one who called and said, "Listen, my partners told me I have to talk to you," or, you know, "They're just fed up with how I'm responding," and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I said, "Okay, why don't we talk?" And so he came in and he was telling me everything was going on and he was and continues to be a cajian.

So his world is a little bit negative and he just was going on and on about everything that was terrible, terrible, terrible, terrible. And so and he just was horrible. Everything was awful.

And so I said to him, okay, well, I have something I would like you to do. And he said, oh, here we go. I heard you're going to give me something very simple and very practical to do.

I said, yes, and let's see if you can do it because some people can't, you know, they, they don't want to take care of themselves.

So let's see if you can do it.

So the challenge was kind of thrown down and I asked him to do something very simple.

And I said, and you're gonna come back on Tuesday, right?

This was on a Thursday, come back on Tuesday and tell me how it went, if you could do it or not.

And so he came back on Tuesday and I said, so how'd it go?

Were you able to talk to your one partner and have a cup of coffee and just sit and visit?

And he said, yeah, we tried, but it didn't go very well.

Everything is still horrible.

My office is terrible, a lot of it.

I said, "Hey, listen, I popped in your office.

You have a brand new ice machine in there." That's really cool.

And he said, "Damn things broken." I said, "Get out of here." So the next thing I gave him as an assignment was, I said, "What I want you to do today," is he had told me about his wife, older couple.

So I want you to go home and I want you to take your wife out to dinner.

Just go in and say to her, "Come on, I'm taking out for dinner tonight." And I said, "And by the way, When you're passing by on I-4, there is a beautiful crepe myrtle in complete bloom.

It is gorgeous, I want you to notice it.

So he came back two days later and he sat down and he said, "Okay, am I really this bad?" I said, "What do you mean are you this bad?" He said, "I went home, tell my wife, "let's go out for dinner." And whereas we're driving by, I passed the tree and I said, "Oh my God, that tree is beautiful." He said, my wife started crying and saying, "Oh my God, you're taking me out to dinner to tell me you're dying." - Oh.

- Said, "Yes, you are that bad." Yes, you are that bad.

If you're asking for the first answer, your wife told you, "Yes, you are that bad," that she thought you were dying because you noticed a beautiful tree.

- Wow.

- Long story short, we worked together and he is still a Kamajan.

And the funniest part of the whole story for me was they started reconstructing I-4 And he came in one day and he said, "Catty, did you notice they took down our beautiful tree?"

(Catty laughs)

Yes, I did notice it.

I did notice it, my God of you.

But he became aware that there are the little things that we have to notice when we are doing medicine.

We have to notice the tree.

We have to notice a person who's not smiling and give them a smile.

You know, it's just, it's the little things that make the difference.

honestly for ourselves and for everybody we meet.

- That is so true.

And it also goes to say that like nobody's so far gone that they can't, you know, like we could connect with everybody and maybe it takes a little persistence, maybe it takes them outside the box thinking, you're like, no, sir, you're actually starting to live, you're not dying, you're living.

That's the news is you're actually living.

Oh my gosh, I love that story.

And you know, I will say it is hard because I think a cynicism sets in.

I will tell you, for my own experience, I go to my academic office, I go up to the fourth floor, and there's this coloring wall, right?

Which is designed for people to color, and to brighten the space.

And I notice every time I go, I'm like, "Oh, it's a little more colored." And then I think, "Oh, well, that's, "it must be nice to have time to color." And this is myself, I'm a pretty sunny person.

And I remember when I got so much to do, "Who has time to color?" So I have a cynical response to something that's meant to help.

Or was another example, they had like massages to help like the staff care team.

- Yes, we did those two couple.

- I know, but like didn't tell anybody and so my three of us attendings in my division were like, well, it would have been nice if we could have canceled patients for the 10 minute massages, but like our schedules are packed.

And so I think, you know, I noticed even within myself like this almost resistance to it.

I don't want to have resistance, but I think it's almost like How to then crack in there?

If I, as a pretty optimistic person, is having this-- and I'm not even living with a chronic disease right now.

Obviously, we'll have to talk to talking about people with infertility.

But what would you say to me-- because I'm sure many listeners can resonate with this-- what would you say to the person who is like, maybe has resistance, who wants to believe that it's possible to relax into this, but also struggles with the help that's being offered.

Does that make sense?

Totally makes sense.

And it's the right question because I think that was what the administration would say, well, we offered this to them, and they don't even take advantage of it.

They don't do this, they don't do that.

And I said, you have to go to them.

You can't expect them to come to you.

And so I think the resistance is not just that you don't want to be positive.

That's not what the resistance is about.

The resistance is about how dare you keep asking me to chip away at who I am.

It's a moral injury for physicians right now that you're chipping away at who I am.

You're not giving me time with my patients or you're not allowing me to give the kind of work I want.

And then on top of it, you want me to be grateful to you for giving me a massage opportunity.

So it's a conflict that's legitimate.

So I think that it's very real.

It's like, don't give me something with one hand and then take away 15 other things in a sweep.

- Yes.

- It just doesn't feel genuine.

It doesn't land well.

So I think that's why our department was a little bit more helpful in doing that because that was what our role was and we went to the physicians.

So that's why-- - You're so right.

If somebody had said, "Listen, I know that you're gonna, maybe like they're gonna be rooming your patient while you're finishing up a note, I'm gonna come by your workstation and we're gonna just like they do when I get my nails done once a month, like they pound on my back and it feels really good.

Maybe it takes 60 seconds, but like we're gonna come to you and we're gonna do, like you're right, I think it's maybe just a frame shift of like what actually helps and coming to the people.

Yeah, makes a lot of sense.

And physicians need to step up and let people know.

That's true.

If it's that this wall is very nice and I love-- it's coloring.

I don't know that the physicians are going to color in that wall.

I wouldn't have even thought about them doing that.

I wouldn't have even thought about that.

I would have thought of patients doing it.

I would have thought about some of the staff that-- not the clinical staff, because everybody is burned.

They're fried.

And it just feels like a diminishment of what your emotion is to think that if I color in, I'm going to feel more whole. No, you're not. It's going to really feel more diminishing. And that's why the practical almost has to be personal, designed for the person that you're talking to, it can't just be now, I wouldn't have told another person take your wife to dinner and look at the tree, you know, it's so I don't mean to tell a story to simplify?

- No, no.

- But to personalize.

- And you know, that's so true.

Like I think about recently we had a welcome party for the new fellow and I said to my other colleague who I adore, she's another physician.

I said, "Hey, what are you doing from like 4.45 to 5?

Could we just like get a table a little early and like catch up while come as soon as I can after my meetings?" And so she had an academic afternoon.

I had, you know, some meetings but could steal away.

So we actually got like 30 minutes people came in a little bit late and we got to catch up for 30 minutes.

It was like gold.

So for me, that personal connection, that's what I need to keep going.

And to be honest, I've never loved coloring.

Like I got in trouble in seventh grade because I didn't color it.

Like it's like, maybe that brings up a wound for my child or something.

I'm like, not whatever.

But like, you're right.

I think it has to, I think it has to be very personal to say, okay, what's actually going to help me feel better?

What's going to help my version of human connection?

What's going to help this be sustainable?

I think you're right.

- Yeah, and I think that for many physicians, the time isn't even there to know what you need.

- That's so true, yeah.

- So I give another story because it is the story that I carry most close to my heart, honestly.

And this is about a young man who had finished his residency, he was only really in the hospital for about a year, and he was a very hard worker.

And he also was a one who called me and he said, "My partner said I need to come because they're afraid "I'm gonna just quit." And he said, I'm close.

They're right.

I don't want to do this.

I don't know why I thought I could be a doctor.

I mean, he was just like that.

And so I said, all right, come in.

So he came in and he sat down and Erica, I kid you not, this young man just started bawling, crying in my office.

That doesn't happen very often, as you know, with physicians either.

Because, you know, they hold it together for everyone.

Just bawling.

And I let him cry for a while.

And I said, Tom, tell me what's going on.

And he said, I can't do this.

I can't do this.

I can't do this.

And I said, what does that mean?

And he said, I'm up Kathy before.

He said, I'm married.

I have two children.

They're four and six years old, a boy and a girl.

My wife is a saint.

She's such a support.

We've been together and she's been just so wonderful.

She takes care of the kids.

She makes sure I have dinner and I came home.

The kids are ready for bed.

He said, but I get up.

I leave before they're even up in the morning.

I come home.

It's late.

This was summertime.

And he said, I come home.

I'm exhausted.

I haven't stopped all day.

I come in.

They're ready for bed.

My wife has saved some supper for me.

Sometimes I eat, sometimes I don't.

I sit on the couch, the kids climb on me for a few minutes.

My wife puts them to bed, I go to bed, and I start over the next day.

I can't do it, I can't do it.

So we talked a little bit more about what the job was, what he was doing, why was it that kind of hours, all of the practical stuff.

And then I said to him, OK, tonight, what I want you to do is I want you to go home.

I want you to take a shower.

And I want you to put on a t-shirt and shorts.

That was all I said I want him to do.

And then I want to see you in two days.

OK, so I get a phone call two days later.

He's going to come in.

He said I can't.

It was three days later.

I said, so two days later, he calls me.

He said, I can't wait till tomorrow.

I need to come in.

I need to come in and tell you what happened.

I said, all right, come in at lunchtime.

So he came in at 12.

And he sat down.

And he said, you're not going to believe what happened.

I said, what happened?

He said, I went home, took a shower, I put on my t-shirt and my shorts, and I came out on my six-year-old, said, "Daddy, can we go for a walk?" So we walked around the corner, she had a new flashlight, and it was starting to get dark.

We took the flashlight, we walked around the corner, "Kathy, it's a short block, it was not long, we watched, she told me about her day, and we talked a little bit.

I came home, my four-year-old was sitting there looking at me like, "How about me?" So I said, "Hey, buddy, let's go out in the yard." He said, "We were out there no more than five minutes, picking up some stocks, sticks, and some stones." with a flat he asked his sister's flashlight.

We went out there, we did that, came back in.

I didn't help with them to bed or anything.

It was the same.

However, the next day when I came home, my daughter came running, "Daddy, daddy, will you be the daddy you were last night?" He's crying, I'm crying now.

And he said, "Kathy, you have to teach me how to be that daddy." And I said, "Joe, the beauty of this is that you already are that daddy.

She's telling you she wants the daddy she already has.

You just have to figure out how we can do this with your job and we will figure it out.

You are not alone.

We're gonna talk to your, we're gonna talk to the department.

We are gonna work this out.

And we did.

And we had things that they had to change 'cause I, you know, I mean, there's no way I'm not gonna advocate for a physician who wants to do a job and have a life.

Right?

Right?

Nobody deserves not to have, you don't deserve to have your life taken away because you're providing life-giving treatment to people.

It's just wrong.

No, no, no.

And I think that is such a beautiful story 'cause I think sometimes we think we need some other life than what we have when really we've built the elements but we're so exhausted that we can't even access, you know, or we think we can't.

It's only a short amount of time that it takes to refill our bucket.

if we're refilling it with the right people and the right things.

- Yeah.

- But the doctors, every individual who works, I mean, we all have to know what it is that is our bucket filler, because everybody's different.

- That's so true.

It's so true.

And in my course that I created, one of the 12 modules is filling your well.

You know, how do we fill our well in a way that is meaningful to us?

Because for each person, it's gonna be very different.

And, you know, we also have to look at what leaks we have.

We have to look at where, you know, do we have a leaky bucket?

(laughs)

- Yes.

- We have a leaky bucket, we gotta patch that bucket.

We need a bucket that doesn't leak.

But I think you're right, like you helped him just lean into the life that he had created and that's just so beautiful.

And so it's coming back to those people.

And at the same time, we always say, that's one of the biggest criticisms of coaching is like, well, you know, are you just saying that, like I have to change myself?

No, no, yes, we change ourselves and we change the system at the same, Like we, we, you know, have our asks, like I heard you say, even early on we have the boundaries, we have what makes it safe, like it's both and, but I think sometimes it's way more accessible than we think it is.

And, you know, we need a guide, you know, like you who could help him see himself.

I love when people say we need to talk sooner than we, I just have to share this with you with these positive life updates, 'cause that's just so, so wonderful.

- And I think the challenge too is that we, One of our biggest challenges are as humans is to forgive.

That's a hard thing for people to do.

And I think the harder part is forgiving ourselves sometimes for something that we think we're not doing enough.

And that's where I find most physicians really struggle with feeling as though they are good enough.

They're not, I can remember one guy saying to me, "I just wanna reach my full potential." And they said, "Well, are we talking about you as a physician or as a person?" because if you want to reach your full potential as a physician, that's a very different mark than if you want to reach it as a person.

And I personally vote for the person part because you are only partly a physician.

The rest of you is so diverse.

So how can we help ourselves reach a potential?

And it's certainly the first step is to forgive ourselves for thinking we're not good enough.

And then the second piece of that is celebrating who we are.

You know, really, really celebrating.

You know, yes, I'm a person and I love being a person.

And part of me as a person is that I'm also a doctor.

- That's right.

And we forget that.

I think it's almost designed.

The system is designed.

You know, when you're working 80 hundred hours a week in training, you're like first and foremost a doctor, you can barely charge your cell phone, you know?

So I think it's almost like the unlearning that we have to do that chiseling away to get to that place where we can remind ourselves we're so much more than this title.

You know, there's so much more than this training.

- And then think about the female physicians who on top of all of the struggle of being a woman, of being a physician, and then also not being able to have a child.

And to think of all the places where the grief is settling, so many spots for grief to settle, and to be able to look at it and be honest, I listened to one of your podcasts of a young woman who had tried many times to become pregnant and then was not sure she could do it again.

She wasn't sure she could try again.

And when she finally realized in her own mind that she had to let those babies go and that she would make room for yet one more attempt and it might not have been the only attempt but it turned out to be a positive experience.

I just loved her story because how brave and how committed to trying to get what she wanted in her life and trying to figure out how was she going to do that and not be upset or angry.

She was really aware that she was going to make another choice and she also knew at that point that if the choice didn't come to her this time, she was going to be okay.

she was gonna be able to let go and forgive and not forget, but embrace.

I loved that.

- That's, and I remember her story so clearly, just a beautiful client who I had, and we'll put the episode in the show notes if people wanna go back to that one.

And I think you're right, forgiving ourselves is one of the hardest things.

And I think, I've never heard it said quite that way, that there's places for grief to settle.

I love that idea.

I think it's so true.

And I think that so many women in medicine, I mean, we do everything that we're supposed to do.

We're like the good girl.

We get good grades, we get through college, we go to medical school, we land a residency in a field that we want to do.

Like it's like this constant achievement ladder.

And so we emerge from that, at some point, mid to late 30s usually, and then it's like, okay, well, have we met a partner yet?

Have we not?

Do we do this on our own?

There's all these things.

And so I will say that people I see most commonly in my coaching practice are people who are at least in their mid to late 30s, if not their 40s, they've done everything they were supposed to do.

They spend their lives saving the people, doing trauma surgery and being in the ERs and the pediatricians, God love them.

They work with kids all day and all they wanna do is have a child themselves, the OBGYNs.

I mean, it's so painful.

And then when the science doesn't work for them, right?

And so I think about just what it's like to navigate a full-time job, to have all those layers of, well, what if I had tried Zinner?

It may or may not have made a difference.

We don't know, you know, what if I had looked for a part?

We just don't know, right?

But I think that there's so many places where we have an opportunity to forgive ourselves.

And, you know, if we don't look for those, we carry those traumas with us.

We carry that self-judgment, we carry that shame.

And I truly think that blocks this process.

I truly think it blocks this process.

- I 100%, I 100% believe that our thoughts are incredibly powerful.

Having mentioned that I came from a trauma background, I mean, that's where, and I am a firm believer that bad events are not what are traumatic.

It is how we respond to them that either creates a freedom and a growth opportunity for us or it destroys us.

And you can see it over and over again, the same thing happens to different people and you see the either the demolition it does to them or the growth that they take.

And you would never know that they have unbelievable journey of pain and loss.

And they know, but they've turned it into something different.

And that is not that, but see the problem with that thinking, which I totally believe in it, The danger with it is there is that space where people can, if they're really hurting and they haven't been able to embrace the grief in a way that does help them and teach them, then they feel as though now they're not only having all this grief, but you're now shaming them on top of it.

Well, I should be over it.

Well, that's not what that means.

You never get over a trauma.

You don't get over grief.

You carry it, but how you carry it can be a choice, but it's a real tricky, little slippery slope.

- It really is.

And I think most of us need a guide.

My own therapist is trauma-informed, and we do all this trauma work.

I think somebody like you or somebody like me who's able to say, okay, let's work through this.

Let's get through.

I think so many of us who have experience, is it so easy to side skirt it?

or this workaholism that's so rampant in medicine, let's just work a little harder and then it's gonna, it doesn't, the problem is it's twofold.

It's number one, working harder at the fertility journey is not going to guarantee more success.

It's actually the unlearning like we talked about.

And then the second thing is how can we forgive ourselves?

How can we get into our bodies?

How can we feel our feelings and process these things because that is the work of the way through.

It is super uncomfortable.

Like nobody ever taught me I learned, right?

But it's a skill, like it's just like surgery, You could learn how to feel your feelings, but the way through is the way through and there's no side-scorning it, but as we heal, that's when people call me up and they're like, "Guess what, coach?

"I got pregnant in between my IVF cycles.

"Where does that come from?

"Guess what?

"I had this vision and this ha- "Like, and I know you're a believer- - It comes from our bodies.

- It comes from our bodies.

It comes from our bodies and we have to let go, we have to surrender, but we need to be shown how to do that because most of us just don't wake up and do that naturally.

Sometimes certain wisdom traditions can help, but I think we need guides to help us with these things.

- Yeah.

- I couldn't agree more and especially for physicians and especially for female physicians, as hard as it is for a man to be a physician and I don't minimize the training.

The training is, and we talked about this a lot with all of our people and retreats and everything else, You're trained not to feel.

You're trained not to focus on what you're feeling in the moment.

You have to go to work and it's like, your family doesn't exist.

Nothing exists.

I do think the younger physicians are doing a little bit differently with that.

- I think so too, yeah.

- And I'm happy for that.

I think they still need, it's still a journey, but I think that they are doing a better job and the older group who completely, you know, how many of them just work until they drop dead because they don't have a life because all they've done is medicine.

And younger people are looking at that and saying, well, that's not fun, thank you very much.

But I do think we know our body holds our story.

And if we can rewrite from listening to our body and make the decisions, it makes a tremendous difference.

you know, our daughter and one thing that she and I came across, this thing she came across, it sent it to me and I just love it. I wrote it down so I could tell you, it's a little thing, a little beginning of a morning ritual and it says to the and I'm sure you've seen it, Erica, but I thought it would be important for us talking today to the person I was, I love you to the person I am, I'm proud of you. To the person I'm becoming, I'm excited for you.

Yes. And I think we're always experiencing those three things and to acknowledge who we've been, who we are, and who we're becoming, even at my age, even as a retired person, and having these growth experiences that are so amazing that I just think it's fantastic and to be able to then relate back. Without looking back and saying, "I have absolutely not a single part of me that says I wish I had." None of it.

Because as you're doing this practice of looking at who you are and who you are and where you're going, you just are in the present moment so much more. And so regret doesn't have a place to sneak in on us as much.

That's so true. I just, I think I'm going to print that out and put that somewhere visible, because I think that that's so very powerful. I, we forget and I think we forget that good things are coming can come. I think we get wired in this pattern of well, I've only I've had four embryo transfers, Erica, and they've not taken that means that none of the other embryos I have are going to take when when different things are happening, things are shifting, there's all sorts of possibility. But I think when we can remember that in the future, we actually can be excited because there are good things coming. There will be valleys and there will be mountains, there always are. But there's going to be something to look forward to, we just don't know what it is yet. And so that's where I think that belief comes. That's where that faith comes. And we have to say, yeah, I'm in this moment and I'm making decisions, I'm setting the stage for the person I'm becoming.

I can't wait to meet her.

- Right, exactly.

This is gonna be this whole new person that I'm developing into and it's very wonderful.

And again, some of the people that you work with, you know, they're developing into a mom in whatever that is going to look like.

And for some, they're gonna have that joy and that ability to do it in their own bodies and for others not. But the fact that they are building to be a mom is going to make them a mother. It's going to happen. It just is.

It is going to happen. So then so what would you say are some practical strategies to say somebody's listening to this they are working full time, you know, I would say 90% of my people are physicians we have some non physicians but let's just like focus on the physicians full time working in the hospital or in a clinic, trying to juggle the part time job, which is the fertility treatments, they're not working. It's the holiday season as we record this episode. Like, maybe you add in a sick parent, you know, people are like, life is hard right now. What would you say are some practical start strategies? Say they're not lucky enough to have somebody like you in their department, who's a safe space? What can people do today to start embracing this new way of being?

- I think part of it is don't rely on finding it only at work.

So find someone in your life, whether it's a family member, a friend, a colleague, someone who you can just touch base with every once in a while.

Even if it's simple, talking to each other, text every once in a while or I think there's never an overestimation of how important it is to have girlfriends or women. You know, one of my hardest challenges is when I have these mean girls. I just don't understand them. I just don't understand how can women be mean to other women because girlfriends are like the treasure trove of life. I think if you don't have someone that you can pick up the phone and just say, "Hi girl, just thinking about you. How was your day?" Randomly, I think that's what you want to look for. So I, and it could be a guy. I'm not saying it has to be a girl, but it could be a guy friend. I do think men and women communicate differently and experience the world differently from places of knowing, but I think you can still have a good guy friend. I do. I have one friend that is from the hospital and he's a buddy. He's Yeah, he's a bro.

And my brothers are pretty cool, but it's still not the same as a girlfriend.

But I do think that's one.

I also think I can remember when I was working.

I never had the radio on in my car going to work.

It was a time when I would get ready and transition, Cathy, mom, wife, friend, daughter, whatever.

and literally.

just get into my work space, which was helpful for me.

Saying coming back, coming back, I listened to a couple of songs that I had on that were, they were a little bit faith-based because that was helpful for me at the time.

In my father's eyes was one of the ones that was a song, and it just talked about how you see God and everyone if you're looking.

And that was at the end of my day, so I could transition and not be carrying everybody with me.

So I think there are little things like that that people can do, or I think a very important transition from home to work, from work to home is, especially for physicians, leaving work and coming home.

there should be a ritual of you entering the home and what you do whether it is a shower whether it's changing clothes Whether it's washing your face brushing your teeth something physical that you do that transitions you from doctor to person Because there is You're not the doctor at home and you need to not be the doctor at home You need to be Whoever you are and you know, you need to be Erica. I need you to be Kathy Not dr. Cathy not dr. Erica not it. We needed to be who we are and so I think and that I think is a ritual thing I Think it's an easy thing to just create it only takes a couple of minutes And my husband would know I would come in and I need five minutes. Nobody talked to me I go do my thing and then I'm coming out and then You know, that's funny, but it's so smart. Yeah - Yeah, that's right.

And then self-care, I mean, you touched on that a little bit.

I mean, it means something different to everybody, but have you found anything where you're like, you know, this is pretty universal in terms of what helps people care for themselves?

- Well, I think the challenge with self-care is that, again, it's extremely personal.

I think the thing that makes self-care work is doing it.

So whatever you decide what it is, if it's a cup of coffee in the morning before anybody else wakes up and you get up 20 minutes before everybody else, then that's what you do.

If it's at the end of the day, if you tuck everybody in and then you go sit with a blanket and you just sit and read whatever it is, it's doing it.

It's making it not even an option, but that itself care has to be done.

It's just a matter of choosing what it is and it can be something very, very small.

For example, buying fresh flowers when you go to the grocery store for yourself and having flowers in your home, one bouquet every week that you have.

And that's something you do for yourself.

If you love flowers.

- That's right.

- If you don't love flowers, that's not the answer.

But if it is, it's that.

So it just very practical applied things that it doesn't have to be that you run every morning.

It doesn't have to be that you do meditation every day.

it doesn't have to be.

It can be the same prayer you say every morning.

My mom used to when my mom, I come from a big family when we would all be leaving in the morning, we would walk up to school, my mother would be saying, "Jesus, Mary and Joseph, be with them on their way." Jesus, Mary and Joseph, be with them on their way.

Jesus, Mary and Joseph, be with them on their way.

That was her ritual.

- Yeah.

- Go to the door every morning and pat, pat, pat, pat, and she'd just say it over and you just go.

That was something that she did for herself because she felt as though she was protecting, putting us in a protective little shell.

So I had no idea what it is that anybody needs, but I would like to share one more story that doesn't come from the hospital that was actually very earlier in my career, very early in my career.

I was just starting out and we had a conference that we went to.

I do not remember anything about the conference.

I don't even remember the speaker or what his name was or what he spoke about.

I remember the last story he told.

It has stayed with me my entire profession and I have used it over and over again.

Here was his story.

He was living in California and he was leaving in the morning.

He was a little bit late.

He got in his car and he got out on the road and there was a car in front of him at a stop sign.

And he was there waiting and the person didn't move.

He started beeping his horn and he could see activity in the front seat of the car.

And he's beeping his horn and now he's starting to swear and this car is still not moving.

And he sees some activity.

He starts to get out of his car.

And at the time that he opens his car door, the front car driver's side opens and a woman gets out and she starts screaming, "Help me, help me, help me." He ran up to the car, opened the back seat who was open as she's opening the back door, he looks in and there's a baby choking in a car seat.

He unhooks the car seat and takes that baby turns upside down and dislodges whatever was caught.

And he said, for each of you who was going to be working with people for the rest of your lives, remember everyone has a baby in the back seat. There's always someone who needs help and you can either be mad and angry with them or you can stop and help. I think that is an incredible example of if we're in the moment we can act in a way that will be good and if we're too self-absorbed or we're too worried that we have too much to do we're going to miss an opportunity.

That's it's so beautiful. That's such a beautiful story and you know just it shifts the perspective right it's like you know we get so focused on our own situation our own problems our own dramas our own to do list whatever it is our own fertility journey.

And I think that when we can come out of that a little bit you know that antidote when you're in a low places to help somebody else you know as counterintuitive as it is and I say this every single support group we're stronger together we are stronger together.

when one person is strong, the other person needs some help, and it's this reciprocity that happens.

And then we connect, like a lot of this is so isolating.

That's one of the worst parts about being in medicine these days, I think.

They say that people in Africa, there's a study that showed that people in Africa would rather have a medical colleague than a new car.

- Yeah, yeah.

- I mean, it makes sense. - It'll lead it.

- And I think that when we can sort of let go of our own defenses in a safe place, come home to ourselves, be with each other in an authentic space.

I truly think that is the way through and that story is so beautiful.

- It's the way through and it's also just important.

You know, as Brené Brown always says, we have to be vulnerable, but with people who are respectful of vulnerability.

- Correct.

- And so doctors, it's hard to know who to trust because it's always, it was always so competitive.

I mean, physicians started competing in middle school.

- That's right.

- So it's a huge mind shift to know that you can trust someone.

And so as physicians, if you can be a trusting colleague, it will reward you tremendously because if you can trust, allow that story to be told to you and hold it with the dignity it deserves, you will be connecting and connecting and connecting and you will feel that connection.

It doesn't have to be that you've gotta trust someone else.

You can be the trustee and it works beautifully.

- That's so true.

That's true.

I feel like we could talk for hours.

- I know, always.

Sorry.

- Can we please do a part two to this episode because that would be so amazing.

Can we do that?

- Can we do what?

Can we do part two?

- Oh my goodness, sure.

(laughs)

- Okay, hold on just a second.

Okay, my dear friend, like I said, we could talk for hours and we are truly doing a part two of this because there's so much more that needs to be shared from my perspective if you're so willing to come on again.

Is there anything else that you would like to share with our audience today?

Is there anything else that's on your heart to share?

I think I would say to especially an audience that has you in their life, which you are a treasure.

And I'm so happy they have you. And I'm happy you have them and that you have found a place where you're really making a difference. And each of them, just remember that you're an important valued person. Even if you're not aware of who you are of value to, I can tell you, I've never met anyone who doesn't have value to someone important to them. So take care of yourselves, be kind to yourselves, and remember that each day you've got to take time for what is important to you. You can't only be giving all day long. That's right. That's right. One of our mantras is I deserve to be a patient. So many people are like, they don't want to book the time, they don't want want to ask for call covers, they want to keep powering through.

And just to mention, there's this fertility coach, her name is Rosanne Austin.

She was we were guests on each other's podcast.

And there's so much masculine energy still in medicine these days.

It's like she talks about it, trying to get pregnant like a man, which I know is awfully gendered.

But I think that when we think about how in order for this to work, we literally have to receive.

Conception is a receiving event.

And receiving is a vulnerable position.

And so when we can have that safety, when we can embrace our feminine divine, which is what I really think this is all about at some level, some very deep level, and come together in that way, you know, because there's so much community that can happen.

I think as we learn to receive as we learn to trust, I think that's where the magic really happens. So thank you for being such a person in my life. Thank you for helping me to always see my own goodness to see the goodness in others, to balance wisdom and love, to always prioritize love, always prioritize love, whether that's love or self-love for my people.

Always prioritize love, absolutely.

I think there's so much I have learned from you and continue to learn from you. And so I really hope we can do part two. Thank you so much for being on today.

Thanks, Erica.

Okay, until the next time I love you, I love you. Bye.