Part Two: The Emotional Side of Intimacy on the Fertility Journey with Dr. Alexandra Stockwell
You can hold a “goals of care” conversation with a patient you met an hour ago.
Then you get home and can't find the words with the one person who's supposed to get it most.
Dr. Alexandra Stockwell is back for Part Two. In Part One, we talked about physical intimacy on the fertility journey. This time we go deeper into the emotional distance that quietly builds when two people are going through something this hard together, but not quite together enough.
This one is for the couple who still loves each other and is trying to find their way back.
In this episode:
Why fertility treatment, like any major stressor, brings the foundation of a relationship to the surface
The specific pain of not feeling seen by your partner and how cultural conditioning shapes which emotions each of you feels allowed to express
What happens to the feelings we don't let ourselves feel, plus a simple practice for reconnecting with your own emotional landscape (bonus points if you do this exercise TID)
The pattern Alexandra sees most often in committed relationships: two people who think they're having different conversations
How to name the kind of fertility conversation you want before you start it — the same way you'd set the agenda for a difficult patient conversation
What to do when you disagree about next steps: another cycle, donor egg IVF, or stopping treatment
Temporarily parking your position to try on your partner's — and why that isn't the same as giving up your ground
Why curiosity opens doors that certainty keeps shut, and how to zoom back out to the shared vision that brought you here
Find Dr. Alexandra Stockwell at alexandrastockwell.com and on Instagram at @intimacydoctor. Her book Uncompromising Intimacy, The Intimate Marriage Podcast, and the Intimate Connection app are all worth a look.
Your partner isn't a colleague you're comanaging a case with. They're the person you chose, long before any of this started.
Appreciate who they are, not just what they do. 💜
With Love and Science,
💜 Dr. Erica
P.S. If you're carrying the clinical decisions and the emotional weight at the same time, and it's starting to feel like you're doing it alone, you don't have to sort through it by yourself. Book a discovery call here. I'd love to connect.
Also, be sure to check out our website: loveandsciencefertility.com
Follow us on social media:
IG: www.instagram.com/loveandsciencefertility
FB: www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61553692167183
Please don’t let infertility have the final word. We are here to take the burden from you so that you can achieve your goal of building your family with confidence and compassion. I’m rooting for you always.
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Erica Bove, MD (00:00)
Hello, my loves, and welcome back to the Love and Science Podcast. I have an amazing guest today, Dr. Alexandra Stockwell. You may remember her from our episode that we released in late August when we talked about intimacy and the fertility journey and how sometimes they can really seem at odds with each other. And also, more importantly, how to find our way back to each other. And so today I'm so honored to have her back because we realized we really did have so much more to say about this topic because part one really focused on a lot of the physical intimacy.
And part two is really gonna focus on a lot of the emotional intimacy that can be a challenge during this process. So let me introduce her, which no words will do her justice. You'll see, she's amazing. but Dr. Alexandra Stockwell, she's a friend, she's a colleague, she's also known as the intimacy doctor. She's a physician coach and intimate marriage expert who's widely known for her ability to catalyze immediate and meaningful shifts in high-achieving couples who want genuine emotional connection, sensual passion.
And a relationship that feels as alive and successful as the rest of their lives. Every single one of my listeners, you know, is a high-achieving woman. And I think there can be such a sense of personal failure when this is not going well. And so we're gonna talk about so many things. she is an author, she is a leader of of a program that I've done personally myself, the Intimate and Hot Marriage Program. she is a podcast host. she just she's there's so many beautiful titles.
to give her and I really cannot wait to to have your wisdom really, Alexander, 'cause I'm talking to you. I'm really I cannot wait to have your wisdom again shared with my with my listeners today. Thank you so much for being here.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (01:40)
Thank you for that gorgeous introduction. And I really am excited to get back into this. It's a really a tribute to you that you really took up the topic of intimacy with so much depth and breadth, such that part one, the first episode, really was on intimacy and sex and how our physical bodies function and can function more deliciously with one another. And really
That was the right place to start in the context of the fertility journey. But overall the right place to start is with the emotional and intellectual connection, because that really is the context that paves the way for the other kinds of more private intimacy.
Erica Bove, MD (02:29)
That's right.
And you know, I love to sort of paint the picture of me sitting in an office. You know, during COVID I didn't get this privilege, but now we have couples coming into the office, and it is so telling to me. I will say more times than not, the couple in front of me, if there is a couple and it's not an individual, is literally like sitting in chairs in opposite directions, their body language completely turned away from each other. And you know, I've always been very sensitive, very empathetic, and you know, when I when I walk into that room.
You can just feel the rupture, you can feel the disconnection, you can feel the tension, you could cut it with a knife, really. And I I love it when I walk into a room and I see a couple and they're turning towards each other, maybe they're holding hands, but you know, I think like I said, more often than not, this fertility journey drives a wedge in the emotional landscape and the emotional connection of couples who maybe previously were doing otherwise very well until this happened. And so, how do you approach a couple who has something big like this?
in their lives that just feels like this huge boulder that's really hard to navigate.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (03:37)
Well, I'm gonna kind of riff a little bit. I don't know if there's any data about what I'm gonna say. This is more my intuitive and experienced perspective. And I think that this is true of any major stressor that a couple navigates, and in particular, the couple navigates it. It's a very different thing when
one person has a stressor and the other is in more of a support role versus it's really a stressor for both of them. So for example, if one person is laid off and doesn't have a source of income for a while, that's a situation where you could say, well, it's it's the laid off partner's stressor, but no, actually that is very much a stressor for the whole marriage, even though the impact is different and it gets that identity differently. I'm not at all in
Any other way saying that that situation is comparable to the fertility journey. I just wanted to use that as an example because I think the fertility journey is just so fundamentally stressful and it kind of brings things to light. It brings things to the surface that sometimes we'd rather not know were there. But
One of the things that comes to the surface is really kind of clarifying what the foundation of the relationship really is. And I want to be very kind of respectful and tender in how I talk about this while actually being truthful about something that often doesn't get the attention that in bringing attention to it.
It's meant to benefit and empower and fuel connection, even if at first it's hard to look at. So anything you wanna say before I continue?
Erica Bove, MD (05:43)
No, I think I think you're spot on. Please keep going.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (05:46)
Okay, so
you know, the main thing that happens when we have a stressor, and exceedingly so with infertility, is that the foundation of the relationship comes to life. So if what brought you together was shared values, shared vision, and expecting to have a family together.
Well, if that no longer feels as certain as it does before we start trying, then it can kind of unconsciously and in sneaky ways, if that foundation is no longer solid or reliable, then the whole relationship again in this sneaky way.
In a way that's gradual, there's typically not one single moment, but it can just feel unsteady, less like the foundation is rocky. So that's one element. Another element is that we just tend to know how to support one another when things are going well, and when it comes to
Articulating our dreams for the future and deciding where we want to live and which house. Those can be challenging, of course, but you very much have the sense that the goal is to move in the same direction together, even if it takes some negotiating to determine exactly what that direction is. When there are fertility challenges, that
Typically as when it when it goes on for some time, maybe not initially, but and how long exactly depends on the couple, but it just can be so confronting and leave us thoroughly un inequ ill equipped. Like it's like you wanna reach for a tool or an attitude or a framework or a communication topic that
Will serve the relationship itself. And it's just very rare to know what to reach for. It's it's much easier to know what to reach for when you want support from a girlfriend, from somebody who's walked this journey before and can empathize. And even though no two women have the exact same journey, there's enough kind of congruence and consonance.
among women who are navigating IVF or whatever it is, that you can feel supported by that. And the journey is just so different for the partner who is trying to get pregnant and the one who wants to be a parent from this pregnancy but isn't trying to get pregnant. I'm just saying it that way because
Maybe we're talking about men and women, maybe we're talking about two women, but regardless, there's
Erica Bove, MD (09:14)
Right.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (09:15)
the the woman who's wanting to be pregnant and the other partner who's not. And those are just totally, totally different journeys. And one of the challenges for the person who's not trying to get pregnant is finding the right balance in navigating their own internal journey.
their own infertility journey and navigating how to support their partner who may well be very prickly and not really comfortable, meaning able
Erica Bove, MD (09:51)
Mm-hmm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (09:52)
to be comforted. So I'm I'm just like putting things in broad strokes. And the one additional piece I want to add is that
One of the things that is so nourishing, inspiring, comforting, the th one of the things that really makes intimate relationships so worthwhile is the opportunity to really feel seen by another human being. And we all have that need. I don't know that it's particularly on Maslow's hierarchy. Maybe it is in one of the upper levels in some other way of saying it, but
We really do yearn to feel seen and in that witnessing and compassion there's there's affirmation. And I think one of the things that happens when there are significant stressors, particularly navigating infertility, is that even with our partner, the person who would become a parent with us, even that person.
doesn't truly get what we're going through. And it is so painful.
Erica Bove, MD (11:09)
It's very painful. That that distance is very, very painful.
Yeah. Yeah. I think you bring up so much. I think that fundamentally the not being seen and not being heard, I think that comes up in so many different ways. And I think that and I'll just call out heterosexual couples for a minute here. Like I think that men are not allowed as children to have quite the range of emotions that women are. And so when it comes to and that's a broad generalization, please hear me out.
There are men who don't follow that, who are raised differently, but I think in general in our culture, women are given many more tools to navigate emotions than men are. You know, men like aka men are not supposed to cry or like those adages that we hear.
And so
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (11:52)
Yeah, let me just say there's very
clear data about that, that at least in terms of cultural conditioning, whether or not there are exceptions in a family, that yes, men are basically conditioned by the age of five to feel angry or not feel. And
Erica Bove, MD (12:11)
Yes. Yes.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (12:14)
similarly, women or girls are conditioned to feel afraid and
sad but not particularly permitted to be angry.
and actually I want to say one more thing when you talked about feeling seen I just was thinking this is really part of the wisdom and beauty of your programs because they they are small meaningful communities for
smart, motivated, otherwise very successful women who are navigating the fertility journey and facing a lack of success in a way that often just comes up and blindsides a woman. So I just wanted to name that I think all of the work that you do is the most beautiful antidote because you do get to feel seen with other women walking the journey too.
Erica Bove, MD (13:15)
Thank you for that. And you know, I just to share with the audience, Dr. Alexander was a guest on in in my support group not too long ago. And so really was able to be a guest coach in that community and see firsthand the kinds of connections and tremendous brilliance and strength and community that exists there, nonjudgment, you know, all the all the things that we don't even know can exist. And so, you know, I have so much to say. We have so much to say. I do think that what I see practically
In
my clinic, is that you know, women can feel, can permission, right? Feel a larger range of emotions, but it's it's all about navigating uncertainty and how do we how do we deal with uncertainty? And I think the equation that has worked for most of us high achieving people throughout our lives is like work harder and it's gonna pan out for you. That's kind of like the tenets of how our society is based, you know. And in this realm, working harder is
Not the equation. It's
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (14:16)
Counterproductive.
Erica Bove, MD (14:18)
counter and that's actually counterproductive. It it you know creates nervous system changes and it activates the adrenals, and there's all sorts of scientific reasons why fertility treatments work less well when people are trying to push against or work within that framework. And so part of the work that I do, number one, is to help people, both men and women, men are welcome on my calls if they want to feel their feelings and actually learn tools because the anger that especially
Men feel as combined with the powerlessness that powerlessness that they feel when their partners are struggling and suffering. It is like 10 out of 10 rage. I've been on the receiving end of that. I try to hold space and not react because I understand where it's coming from. But I think women and men need tools for processing the incredibly intense range of range of emotions that come up. And then, like, that's an that's somewhat of an individual endeavor, right? Is is processing our own inner landscape. And then
Being able to come to another person and hold space for another person and say, like, I see you. And and this is not we'll talk in a minute about when people are on different pages. Oftentimes people are on different pages of this journey. But I think even more importantly than getting back on the same page is having tools to navigate the intensity of the grief, of the shame, of the blame. I mean, let's even talk about how we start the okay, we're gonna check a semen analysis, and then we're gonna check your tubes, and then we're gonna check your uterus, and then we're
We're
gonna check your ovarian reserve and you're the problem. You know, like I'm I'm being sort of facetious here, but it's like okay, this is male factor, or this is female factor, or this is this, and maybe, maybe you waited too long.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (15:55)
Or it's unknown etiology.
That's not like yes.
Erica Bove, MD (15:57)
Or it's unknown etiology. We don't.
And so even the way it's structured is like set up almost for blame, you know, even with our language of how we diagnose these pro these types of problems. And so I think really, really cutting through that and giving people mechanisms to say, like, this is not your fault. Infertility is a chronic disease. You know, one in six couples experiences it, one in four female physicians, one in three female surgeons, and how can we look at it as a disease as you would any other chronic disease, reduce
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (16:34)
You know, I'm I'm torn right now to go deeper into the societal landscape. And also there's a part of me that just is craving giving two very practical suggestions to navigate what we've just talked about. So I think
I'm gonna go with that. Okay.
Erica Bove, MD (16:53)
Let's get practical. Let's go practical. And then we can always
revisit society later 'cause I have a lot more to say about that.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (16:59)
Okay. Okay, so
in terms of feeling feelings, again, men or women, I wanna just share one of the simplest tools, which is if you've never done what I'm about to say, you're gonna totally underestimate how helpful and impactful this tool is. It really
is massively helpful. So with that introduction, this this comes from a mentor of mine in 2008, the founder of the School of Womanly Arts. She teaches this exercise which is well I'm gonna sh I got it from her but I've morphed it and I'm gonna share how I share it with my clients, which is I suggest you set an alarm in your phone
Three times a day. If for whatever reason you just do it once a day, that's okay too. But I suggest three times a day you stop what you're doing, pause, take a breath, and notice how you feel. And when I first started doing this, like some of the first feelings I got were, I feel like I really wish the house was clean.
That does not count as a feeling in this. This is going to be an emotional wor word, the four main emotions being mad, sad, afraid, and happy. And of course, there are so many nuances with just you can be as descriptive as you want, but the point is to identify something which genuinely is an adjective that's an emotion. And then
Write down, I think there are reasons related to brain chemistry and so forth that it's ideal to do this with pen and paper, but otherwise just do it on your phone. Write down, I feel however you've just identified you feel. And that is a right way to feel.
And that's it. My explanation took about five times longer than this actually takes, unless when you stop, you don't know how you feel. And
Erica Bove, MD (19:26)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (19:27)
I actually have a list of maybe maybe I'll turn that into something that you can put as a link in the show notes because I have a list of feelings like it's not exactly multiple choice because there's no correct the only correct answer is the one that you choose, but it's divided by feelings.
Where your needs are met, feelings where your needs aren't met. And when you just start looking over this list of feelings and it's that one and not this one, that can be super helpful because this isn't a creative writing exercise. It is a look in the mirror of your soul and notice how are you feeling. So just to summarize super quickly, set an alarm for three times a day. When the alarm goes off.
You take a breath, you pause, you look inside, notice how you're feeling, and whatever it is. It could be furious, it could be calm, it could be devastated, it could be ecstatic, whatever it is, and it doesn't need to be those extremes. I'm just being a little dramatic myself. And then you write down I feel delighted. I feel stressed. And that is a right way to feel because.
For those of us who have prioritized accomplishment and achievement and staying awake when we wanted to go to sleep and just studying for the exam, even if we were hungry, like we have learned to override our own needs emotionally, physically, mentally, and
One of the natural consequences of doing that, it's like collateral damage, is that we have needed to ignore our feelings in order to be successful and to be professional. So this is a way to reconnect with our emotions, which they may have gone dormant in terms of our awareness, but they've never actually disappeared or gone away.
It's just our
Erica Bove, MD (21:35)
That's right.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (21:36)
ability to perceive them that has. And this is an exercise that I give to men, I give to women, I give to anyone who would benefit from feeling more connected with what is alive inside. So that is one
Erica Bove, MD (21:52)
Mm-hmm. And I
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (21:53)
practical suggestion.
Erica Bove, MD (21:55)
Yeah,
I don't know if you knew this, Alexandra, but in my in my groups in my course, we actually use the how we feel app, which is free, which you can set to send you reminders however many times. So I have mine set to three times a day. And it gives you the different quadrants and it gives definitions of the feelings and and that I find is very it's like the same thing exactly. It's just a free app that people can download and use and and then obviously the part that that it doesn't come with the app is to say and that is a right way to feel because we
have to affirm that there's no wrong way to feel. but I think Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (22:29)
Okay, well then that's perfect. That app sounds amazing. I'm gonna download it and I
do really recommend both identifying the feeling and then writing down and that is a right way to feel because the vast majority of feelings we have, if we haven't been attuned to our feelings, we judge them. We we think that feeling happy is good and feeling sad is bad, that feeling rage is something we shouldn't do and feeling
Calm and generous is how we should feel. No, there's a way, sure, it's convenient to feel better, but in terms of the moral value of feelings, they're all equivalent. It definitely matters what you do with them if you
Erica Bove, MD (23:11)
Right.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (23:11)
take any action. But to just say and that is a right way to feel is a way of healing and integrating and self-honoring.
that in many ways is the thing that contributes to this being a much more impactful exercise than you might think just listening. And it is different if you write it down versus you just think it to yourself.
Erica Bove, MD (23:40)
Exact
no, very different. And I think, you know, when I was first dipping my toe into the coaching waters, you know, I learned that feelings
come before needs. And like like you said, you know, a feeling where your need isn't met. I think that as we think about this whole podcast today is about relationality and how we can r express ourselves to another person, like having that vocabulary, I think, is really helpful. And how many women do I see who are just chronically exhausted? And a lot of it is because all this is happening under the surface and there's avoidance and there's resistance and there's, you know, Netflixing and no judgment.
You know, Netflixing or overworking and all these things because it's trying to push those feelings to the periphery or out of the background. But like you said, they don't go away. And what I find is once we start processing our feelings, it feels temporarily uncomfortable and unfamiliar. But once we do that, we get our energy back. And that's like anybody who's on the fertility journey who's also working a high level professional job and all the things, like that is gold to be able to say, I'm not running ragged anymore. I have a little bit more emotional relationship.
reserve, to you know, enjoy the present moment, to connect with my partner, to have that conversation, speaking of conversations, maybe to have the fertility conversation, which we can talk about. But these emotions, unaware of when we're unaware of our emotions, it steals our energy and it steals our ability to connect with both ourselves and other people, specifically our romantic partners.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (25:06)
Yeah, I I often think of unfelt or unacknowledged emotions as being like energetic cysts. They're like
Erica Bove, MD (25:18)
Yes.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (25:18)
walled off, but when you lance them, what comes out is energy.
Erica Bove, MD (25:26)
Yes, you're right. No, I love that analogy. Most of my listeners are female physicians who will very much understand your abscess analogy, or cyst, or whatever, whatever.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (25:30)
Right, this this right I wouldn't be
saying that in another podcast. Okay. Well I think with what you said I wanna transition to the other practical tool that I have, which is more relational.
So the second practical strategy that I have, it comes from my conviction that the thing which is most consistently problematic in long-term committed relationships is when one person thinks the couple is having one kind of conversation and the other person thinks the couple is having a different conversation. Did we discuss this in part one?
Erica Bove, MD (26:09)
I
I don't think we did and if and even if we did I know we talked about it in our support group, but even if we did in part one, I think it's useful to review again today because it's so important. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (26:17)
Okay, because I saw the recognition in your face, so I will go ahead
and repeat it. So I think what is super helpful is for the couple to together identify the different kinds of conversations that you have. Because let me just step back a minute and say what is so common is one person is sharing in order to share what's alive in them and
To be witnessed and seen and received. And the other person thinks, they're telling me a problem. Let me go into problem solving mode. And so the stereotype is that she says, you know, I'm feeling really upset because I'm not sure when we can schedule the retrieval and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so he thinks, she's she's upset about scheduling the retrieval. Let me pull out my calendar and address when we can do that. How about next?
Tuesday we call about blah blah blah. And it just feels crappy because what she really needed is to have her feelings affirmed and received and honored. Maybe she just needed a hug. Maybe she needed some soothing, comforting words. And so he meanwhile is trying to be helpful. He thinks he's doing
Erica Bove, MD (27:41)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (27:42)
the right thing.
And then he's confused why she's so annoyed with him because he's so clearly missed the mark. And she's feeling like, I'm sharing something vulnerable. Why is he coming at me with all this practical stuff? I f
Erica Bove, MD (27:55)
Right.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (27:56)
I don't feel received. I don't feel seen. So in order to avoid that and disrupt it, and by the way, that's the stereotype in society that the woman shares emotionally and the man problem solves, but
The more accomplished and smart and successful the woman, the more of a doctor the woman is, the more likely for it to go the other way just as much, where he shares something about what he's feeling. And she's like, okay, let's let's figure out the solution, get your calendars, da-da-da-da-da. So this is not,
Erica Bove, MD (28:30)
Yeah.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (28:31)
this may be gender stereotyped for people who are more traditional in how they.
Do their relationships. But for any woman who's like rewarded and
Erica Bove, MD (28:43)
Yeah, seriously. Yeah.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (28:45)
has, you know, in becoming a doctor and by handling problems and managing people, then yes, this is very likely to be how she responds as well. But anyway, the point is that I suggest as a couple, you can do this individually, but I think it's in some ways more powerful to as a couple make a list of the different kinds of conversations you have. So
Yes, you make logistical conversations. You have logistical conversations, financial conversations, emotional check-ins, vacation planning. I I taught this to a group once and one of the women said gossip. So I was like, Yes, you know, that's a good one too. And or or like reminiscing about past memories.
Erica Bove, MD (29:35)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (29:36)
I'm I'm giving different
Options because not all couples have the same list and not all couples are going to use the same terms. But the main thing is to identify what are the different kinds of conversations you have, and in the process, maybe there's a kind of conversation you'd like to be having that's not on the list,
Erica Bove, MD (29:54)
Sure.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (29:55)
so you want to add it because I definitely think I think this is true of all couples, but it's especially so for a couple on the fertility journey to have.
Vulnerable conversations, conversations where you're just sharing how you feel and what your fears and concerns are in a tender way, not to solve them, but to be seen and witnessed. Anyway,
Erica Bove, MD (30:21)
Yeah.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (30:21)
once you have your list of types of conversations, then before you begin any conversation, maybe the ones that go super smoothly, you don't need to do this, but
Anything that may not go smoothly, whoever's going to start the conversation to be clear what type of conversation it is, and then say so, say, I'd like to have a vulnerable conversation. Are you available for that? Or I want to share something complicated. Are you available for that? And that really needs to be a real question because if he says yes when he's actually a no.
Or he he acquiesces and participates, that conversation is gonna be so much less satisfying
Erica Bove, MD (31:12)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (31:13)
versus if both of you are really a yes to making it happen. So I definitely, if you're listening to this part together, I definitely encourage for both of you, whoever is initiating the conversation.
That you feel free to say, not right now. I want to have dinner and finish my charting and then we can do it. Or actually, can we just do it on the weekend? Whatever it is that's gonna work. And then you can go ahead and have the conversation. And then the high-level play is either before or after for the person who shared to say what kind of response they want.
And if they haven't, for the other person to ask, what kind of response would you like? And I just want to say if you have a discussion like this where you clarify this is what you're going to do going forward, then you're set up. If you don't discuss it and you just do it, especially if a man well, it's different. If a man asks a woman, or a woman asks a woman, or
Woman asks a man, it there are complications in all scenarios. If at the end of sharing you say to someone, How would you like me to respond? Because it's very easy to misinterpret that as asking the other person to carry the mental load, to give you a
script,
Erica Bove, MD (32:39)
Sure.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (32:40)
but then it's not genuine. It just makes all kinds of complications. So I highly recommend that sometime when you're not in the middle of a complicated conversation, you
articulate that this journey with fertility is one that is gonna have a lot of conversations unlike other conversations some which require decision making some which don't and
Erica Bove, MD (33:10)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (33:10)
it's so easy to kind of get it wrong even though of course you're both motivated to be loving and supportive so in order to
Increase the likelihood of your intention being received accordingly, I recommend that you just let it be a part of how you interact, that the person listening can ask genuinely, How how would you like me to respond? Or what kind of response would feel good to you? Not because you have to solve their side of the equation, but
Let's stop expecting our partners to be mind readers and also take responsibility. What will make you feel better? There have been plenty of times where I didn't know the answer to that. So I might say to
Erica Bove, MD (34:03)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (34:04)
my husband, I really have no idea. And he would say, Well, would you like a hug? And I would say, I don't know, let's try it.
Erica Bove, MD (34:16)
That's so beautiful.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (34:17)
And so
maybe he'd give me a hug and I'd be like, Yeah, that's helpful, don't let go Or maybe I'd say, I appreciate this, but I need something else. And you can maybe you need a bowl of ice cream. You know, I don't I don't maybe you need sex. Well, I don't know.
Erica Bove, MD (34:36)
Yeah. Or baby validation.
I mean I what I'm hearing you say is sometimes I mean what I see is that there's a lot of overwhelm.
That goes with this process. There's a lot of fear of uncertainty. There's a lot of logistical mental overload. There's a lot of and I wan also want to talk about being on different pages, because I think that's really important. And how how beautiful is it to have a partner say, Wow, I can really hear how overwhelmed you are. Like, yes, like thank you for sharing, I can really appreciate the overwhelm.
And that just to reflect
that back I think is the the to be seen and heard. Nothing is being fixed or solved or strategized, but but that would be counterproductive. It's it's the it's the reconnection through seeing each other.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (35:21)
Completely and that's what has you feel like you're in it together and I
Erica Bove, MD (35:26)
Yes.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (35:27)
just want to distinguish two kinds of validation or affirmation. There's the one that you modeled so exquisitely, which is emotional validation, like just mirroring, I can see how overwhelming this is. And then there's also
It has a positive emotional impact, but it is more intellectual validation, which is just restating what you've heard, not to
Erica Bove, MD (35:55)
Yes.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (35:57)
with the feeling like, am I getting it right for the quiz, but more like I'm understanding that you really never expected for us to be here and that you're really torn because there are pros and cons with this and pros and cons with that.
And you're not sure whether or not we should just take a break and recalibrate right now. Like there's a way in which restating the words can be very soothing and also just you seem so overwhelmed, just like you just said. And sometimes either one works, sometimes one is much better than the other. And again, if you come with curiosity and gentleness and kindness.
rather than problem solving, I have to get it right, what's the right answer here? But if it's if it's just more humble, then you can say, would you like me to restate what I've heard or just affirm how you're feeling right now? And again, if a woman s or a man says, I don't know, then you try something and then the two of you discover what works.
And even if it works today, that doesn't mean the next time you're feeling really overwhelmed that about the same issue, it doesn't mean the same thing is gonna be the the right way to soothe and connect because we change and grow and emotions do not follow formulas. They follow patterns
Erica Bove, MD (37:35)
We don't
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (37:36)
but not formulas.
Erica Bove, MD (37:38)
That's right. Thank you so much for for saying that so beautifully. And I also find that like when I'm in the listening role, I will often check back and say, Did I get that right? Or is there anything I missed? Or because you know, we we can't absorb a hundred percent of what people are saying always. And if there's something that is the most important part that maybe we missed in that restating of the sort of the the the intent, the words, I I think it's really powerful to give the person the the space to say.
Say, and that that piece too. Like, I really want you to understand that it's this part. You know, that I'm, you know, I've heard all the time, not all the time, but many times, the female partner in the heterosexual relationship will say, My husband deserves to be a father so much that he should divorce me. I I hear that so frequently. And I think that bringing those sorts of things to the light and having a space to talk about those really difficult emotions, and then and
And then having that reflected back, I think there's something super powerful in like, did I get that right? You know? Anything you'd add to that?
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (38:47)
Yeah, I have two things to add. One is that shame thrives in the dark and bringing things to light and specifically being in connection diminishes shame. So that feeling we should get divorced because my husband deserves to be a father and I may not be able to provide that.
Whatever there are a lot of different things at play, but one of them, of course, is shame. And to be able to say that, to admit that to yourself first of all, and then admit that to your partner, these are ways to actually antidote the stranglehold that that shame has, because in
Erica Bove, MD (39:33)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (39:34)
connection, shame dehydrates. So I'm really affirming what you've said.
So I'll tell a story about my own marriage. So when I have shared something and then my husband has restated it and asked, Did I get that right? I want to say there are three options. One is yes, he did. And one is
No, you didn't, or you you got 80% of it right, but this piece was the one that I really wanted you to understand. And the third thing that I definitely I probably experience this most often is that I share something, he restates it and reflects it to me, and he has accurately heard me, but in my hearing him restate that, I then realized that either there's something else I didn't consider.
Or actually, I don't feel that way, even though that is what he said, and he's reflecting to me. So I
Erica Bove, MD (40:40)
Interesting.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (40:40)
I just want to emphasize that this is a creative connecting process, and it's not that you say something and then your guy either or or your partner either gets it right or they don't. I would I would look at it much more as a collaborative team activity, and yes, you're the one expressing, but
There's a lot in that for both of you.
Erica Bove, MD (41:06)
Mm-hmm. that's so beautiful. And it it just warms my heart so much that you have the relationship that you do where you can have those experiences together. It's a it's a great to see it's possible too. If you're listening to this and you're like, I can't even imagine my partner ever doing something like that. I mean, of course it takes buy-in, but I think that's part of like the zooming out and looking at like I think both people at their core want to have a healthy, beautiful, passionate, connected relationship, you know, en route to becoming parents.
And so, you know, just knowing that these sorts of things are possible, I think, gives a lot of hope to put these strategies into work, into implementation.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (41:46)
Well, let me
also say that we've been married for thirty years. My husband and I met in medical school and h his parents were divorced, my parents were divorced. We definitely did not know how to do this. I was much more capable while still not skilled. He was just not capable. And the first few years of our marriage, I can't tell you how many times he asked me if I could please just give him
A manual to be married to me because he had no idea how to do this. So anything
Erica Bove, MD (42:18)
Wow.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (42:19)
that I'm sharing with ease about our communication, it's not because we arrived at our wedding day able to interact this way going forward. It really takes practice, I say. Often having a fantastic relationship is a learnable skill, and it really is through practice.
that I can now talk about it in this way and I believe anyone who wants to learn the skills, if they're willing to put in the effort and they're motivated, then yes, you you absolutely can have a conversation like this.
Erica Bove, MD (42:55)
Which is so beautiful.
I wanna make this really concrete because I think, you know, people listening to this are probably like, well, this is I mean, we've talked about some practical things, but this is also very abstract. And like what happens when I wanna do another egg retrieval cycle and generate more embryos because all the other embryos haven't taken, or we want three children and and we only have one or two euploid embryos, like I see all the time, like there's so many details in
In the fertility treatment, so many numbers, it's overwhelming. It's really too much information, truly. And I think that as treatment goes on and as treatment can be unsuccessful sometimes, I think individuals and couples really start to be threatened with the possibility of either A not becoming parents at all or B not having the families that they initially dreamed of having together. And that's a very, very destabilizing.
really terrible position. And so, you know, what I see is like, okay, so you've, you know, I've done three cycles with my own eggs and I'm considering doing a fourth cycle. And then this is typically like in a heterosexual couple, like the the the woman wants to keep going with treatment and then the man is looking at the mortgage and the upcoming expenses and and is like, no, no, we can't afford it. We have to preserve our resources because then there's the threat of financial instability on top of everything else. And I think many people, especially men in our society, some women too, many.
Women, but like I think, you know, many men see it as their role. They're like, well, if I can't go through the treatments and the injections and everything, at least I can make sure that we have a stable home and that our retirement is secure and like all those. So I I think the finances of this become very mind-boggling in a world where, you know, treatment was all covered and, you know, obviously there was the effect of time and success and everything. I think it would be a lot less complicated. But I do think the financial picture is a big reason why many couples are in different
Pages. And so sometimes it's also like the decision, okay, I've done three or four cycles with my own body, it doesn't seem to be working. Do we consider an egg donor? And one person's like, Yes, let's do that. That sounds like what we need. My own eggs are not good. And then somebody's like, That's infidelity. I mean, that's I've heard this before, you know, or somebody's really morally opposed to using an egg donor. There's all sorts of situations, or somebody might need a gestational carrier, or maybe a sperm. These things often come up around third-party reproduction, but.
You know, whether to keep going with treatment, whether to stop, whether to keep trying to have children in a different avenue, whether to maybe pursue a child-free life, all these differences in opinion can be very, very threatening and destabilizing. And so what would you say, Dr. Alexandra, to a couple who loves each other dearly, doesn't like each other very much in the moment, feels that a lot of animosity because these feel like very high-stakes things, and the only way to seem to solve it seems
to be to dig in the heels and to, you know, dig in a little bit more to one's own position to kind of fight the good fight.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (45:58)
Okay, well what really works is very challenging for one person. And I think whichever person is more capable of this is the one who should go first. So when there is a difference of opinion, I'm I hope it's obvious, not gonna weigh in on whether to use an
a donor egg, whether to do another round or not. Like I'm giving general principles, but they apply in every scenario that you've just described. Because
Erica Bove, MD (46:30)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (46:31)
actually we started this conversation in the right way for the to set this up because one of the things that is most important is that we feel seen and heard. And so let's say I want to do another round of IVF. My husband doesn't want to, he's looking at our shrinking
assets and getting super nervous and I want I want to do another round and if he's just focused on the money then I feel unseen unappreciated like how could you prioritize money over how I feel and what I want right now and meanwhile he's over there saying yes I know you want that I wish it wasn't necessary I wish it were simple but
I am going to panic if we take another big chunk out with an uncertain result. Like,
Erica Bove, MD (47:28)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (47:29)
so two positions totally valid when we're like objectively looking at it, but they feel diametrically opposed. And the main thing is that the fertility journey inherently not inherently, it is about becoming.
Parents together, about having a family together. So to come to one of these maybe inevitable junctures, I mean, it's not inevitable to get to that, but at a certain point it becomes inevitable, where you really each feel alone, like you're
Erica Bove, MD (48:07)
Yes.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (48:07)
not on the journey together. And the whole context of this journey is about being on it together. So there's so many layers of this being confronting. And I just want to acknowledge that.
As I transition into solutions. So again, we want to feel seen and heard. We do not want to feel alone, lonely, taken for granted, misunderstood, any of that. And when you're at this kind of juncture which can totally feel like an impasse, there are two things that really do make a difference. One
is to focus on one person's perspective first, to whichever one of you has more capacity to do that, to really leave your side of the argument and walk over and stand beside your partner and look at their viewpoint. And I want to be super clear if you're a husband who does not want to spend another penny
Or only another 10,000, not another fifty thousand, like whatever it is. If you're if you're a man and and if you're the one who is more capable of making this move, then you can, metaphorically speaking, come stand beside your wife and really get into her perspective, her yearning, her desire for another round of IVF.
Really doing all of that with the understanding on both people's parts that his letting go of his position temporarily and really standing beside her, carrying her position with her, it doesn't mean that he's letting go of his position and agreeing with her. It means that he's emotionally connecting.
With where she is standing as opposed to her continuing to stand there alone. And from there
Erica Bove, MD (50:25)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (50:27)
to have a conversation. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is curiosity, which truly is the opposite of certainty, and it's the opposite of having an adversarial position. So if he
Metaphorically speaking, and maybe even literally, comes over and puts his arm around her and really takes up the conversation about another round of IVF and becomes curious, like what makes this so clearly the right answer for you? And would
you want to do another one after that? Like, is is there a limit? Would you wanna
You know, would you do 30? I I assume that isn't what happens, but I just mean maybe that could come off sarcastic, so it's not a great example. But what I'm really trying to convey is genuinely opening your mind and opening your heart, present with curiosity to receive what she wants to share, to basically like walk around in her internal landscape.
Erica Bove, MD (51:40)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (51:41)
in which the bottom line is yes, another round of IVF to stick with our example. And if he's able to do that, again, it doesn't matter which gender goes first, but anyway, just for clarity's sake, I'm sticking with the man going first. If he's able to do that
There is something in her that will ease because she will feel seen, she will not feel alone, she will feel understood, and she will be able to experience a sense of collaboration. And however long that takes.
Once she really feels satisfied that he gets where she's coming from. That's gonna include affirmation, likely restating, whatever it's gonna, it could be a look in her eyes, in his eyes to her eyes, there's something that will happen such that she can relax.
She doesn't need to feel like a warrior in this conversation with like a an internal sumo stance. She can relax, she can let go of the stress, she can appreciate how much he cares and that he has the capacity to align with her. And
For such an intense topic like this, it may not make sense to then do the other position at in the same conversation with something much more minor. And by the way, I highly encourage you to practice any skill that I have taught here when it's really small stakes, so you become competent and even masterful with the skill before you use it in a really contentious matter.
Where you want to be focusing on the content, not on how do you do this skill. But anyway, either after she really feels like he gets it and he really feels like he gets her, then take a breath.
And then, functionally speaking, he can go back to his position and she can join him, maybe even looking at the accounts and really being sympathetic. Again, not because now money takes precedent, but just parking her real desires to the side and really.
hearing him out rather than having any armor up where it feels dangerous to take in the merits of what he's saying because it means the consequences not doing another round of IVF, but to just put that aside and really let him feel seen and heard and deeply understood and
I again, like I said earlier, this has a bigger impact than one typically can imagine up front. I don't personally, either in my own life or with clients, have experience using this specifically with this kind of an issue, but I have experience using it in so many, many issues. And in fact, I had a a couple that I I coached.
For a while, and there was so much growth, and each of them became so much more emotionally intelligent and able to articulate their positions. And yet, this one issue still felt super stuck. And so she said to me, How do we like change this dynamic? Whether he agrees with me or not, like, how do we get out of this? And I remember.
thinking about it and it had been a while since I had had a moment like that with my husband. But sure enough, two days later, we did. I remember exactly we were standing in the kitchen and I was saying what I was saying. He was saying what he was saying. Neither one of us felt heard because we had different viewpoints. And while I in the moment hated doing this, I was inspired for my client to figure out some kind of a path
Erica Bove, MD (56:05)
Ha ha ha
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (56:08)
bushwhacking through this forest. So if I didn't have that, I don't think I would have been generous enough to do this just for my husband's sake. But I did. I just was very clear. I said, okay, I'm gonna park how I feel. I'm gonna pick it up again afterwards, but for right now, I'm gonna really just focus on what your experience is. I I didn't have this method yet. This was how it arose. And so I did. I
I stopped protecting myself. I opened up to hear his position. And it wasn't as hard as I thought it would be once I was super clear with myself and with him that I it didn't mean I agreed I was still gonna bring back what I wanted to do. And I heard and I was curious and I really got it. And he was so satisfied. I never expected he would be satisfied in that conversation, but he really was.
And then it turned out when we did pivot to what I was saying, it was actually pretty efficient and uncomplicated because for him, seeing my perspective no longer meant that he was giving up his own or that I wouldn't
open to him. So again, whoever has more capacity, there's no gender.
sequence hierarchy here or or even you know with with two women that the one who's pregnant and the one who's not. No, it's whoever has more capacity to park their position temporarily.
And there just it's something empowering about parking something that you feel strongly about and making room for the person you love to take the up the space in your heart and in your mind. And the thing that makes it safe is knowing that you're not gonna then ignore your perspective. And I feel like I want to put like a
warning label on this, not specifically with something like another round of IVF and the financial considerations, but there are a lot of times in more day to day disagreements where
Once one person proceed, like like if the person who has more capacity to open to the other person's perspective does so, then the person who shared, they're like, Okay, well, this is clear. Like, clearly you understood what I said, you you didn't have a problem with it, and then they don't bring up the other position. That is just not doing this.
Properly and that will not help the
Erica Bove, MD (59:07)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (59:08)
quality of connection that will build resentment and misunderstandings and false assumptions. So I know I've said it many times, but I really want to reiterate that the only way that this serves a couple is if after really focusing on one person, then you focus on the other. And when a couple does that,
It it just takes the sting and the tension out of it. Sometimes some third solution presents itself that never would
Erica Bove, MD (59:42)
Mm-hmm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (59:42)
have come if there hadn't been genuine curiosity along the way.
Erica Bove, MD (59:46)
Yeah, yeah.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (59:47)
Other times each person still has their same position, but the whole thing is softer and more collaborative, and with more understanding, whatever decision ends up being made.
doesn't diminish the it's not a power move anymore. It it's it's more of a collaborative move.
Erica Bove, MD (1:00:14)
Wow.
I mean, I think there's so much wisdom in what you just said. And you know, a lot of times when I'm working with couples, I see my role as saying, let's let's let the goal be like me and you versus infertility instead of me versus you. And and what I'm hearing you say is that through this exercise initially with your husband and now what you help your clients with is that you are able to create psychological safety. And when people feel threatened, it's like the brainstem, you know, it's like the frontal lobe is offline, our best selves do not come to the
But you're able to create that psychological safety such that people are able to share and be vulnerable and and and not threatened by the other person, right? It's like if I know I'm gonna get to pick up my position, then there's there's really not the same risk in like acquiescing or whatever we think we're afraid of, right? We're afraid of like completely losing our ground and I think at some deep level losing our identity. I think at some level we're afraid we're gonna disappear. If if
If the if the wrong thing happens, or if we don't get that other cycle, or if we have to pivot and do something different, I think that because, and we haven't talked to much about this, but because there are such implications for the completeness of the vision of the couple, especially initially, or maybe it's a a couple that is deeply in a cultural or religious context where having children is everything. And if you don't have children, then there's no point, you know. And and I and I know that sounds very harsh, but
But
I think we all know that like people talk a lot of times about just culturally speaking how it's important to their parents and the whole community that they have children. And so I think at some level, people are afraid that they will not exist, they will not belong, they will not belong to each other, and that even if you give up your position temporarily, or that that that you won't exist anymore either. And so when we can feel seen and heard and reconnect with each other, it reaffirms that we can exist a little longer.
that we can come up with creative solutions, that we can figure this out. And again, it becomes like me and you versus infertility instead of me versus you. And that's just such a more beautiful, less alone space to be. So I I love your exercise. I'm gonna I'm gonna start recommending that to my people.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:02:35)
I'm so glad. I'm so glad. And I want to add in response to what you just said that I think one of the challenges in modern marriage at large, and certainly modern marriage in the context of the fertility journey, is that there used to be all kinds of reasons like purpose for marriage.
It was for political alliances among European aristocracy. It was for financial reasons, whether it was because of the dowry or in order to yeah, just different things like that. And of course also procreation to have children so that there were people to work on the farm. There all kinds of contexts. And I think of the various kind of
Hundreds and thousands of years of reason purpose for marriage, the one that has remained most entrenched in our society is having children. And while
Erica Bove, MD (1:03:48)
Mm-hmm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:03:49)
I want to be very respectful how they how I say this on a podcast serving women on the fertility journey, I don't think
That is a viable sustaining foundation for marriage. And what I think is that the ultimate purpose for marriage is personal growth and self-awareness. I think the ultimate vehicle for personal growth is intimate relationship. And you can be extremely devoted to.
Having a family with some number of children, and whatever arises along the way, in whether that happens or it doesn't happen, and really the most sustaining foundation is an orientation towards personal growth because that's something that you have for the rest of your life.
Erica Bove, MD (1:04:56)
No, I mean as a divorce person that really rings true. And they talk about the two waves of divorce and one of them is when children go off to college because that was the only thing that were holding people together and their their whole relationship has dried up otherwise. And I think I I would love this is my my like dream vision is that nobody would ever choose the fertility journey, right? But that that it could be something that can help people grow closer. And then, you know, my vision is that every single person who
Desires to become a parent deserves to become a parent, and then that growth will then, and I just have chills saying this, is that that growth will then help people become even more, even better parents and even more loving parents and and and break intergenerational trauma and like all these things that we talk about, but I think that the work starts now, and this is exactly what you're talking about.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:05:50)
Absolutely, the work starts now, and I think every single thing that we have talked about today has been in service of using our intimate relationship to personally grow, to become more emotionally intelligent, to become more gratified and satisfied in life, to become more.
clear in our self awareness and in how we express ourselves to our partner and in the values that guide us in our decision making. So I love that vision.
Erica Bove, MD (1:06:34)
Yeah, and I also think, you know, one more word about the details. I I mean I'm a I am a a a tree person and sometimes I you know I need people in my life to help me see the forest. And so we can get so mired in the details that sometimes we forget to zoom out and look at the big picture. And and I one thing I love helping couples with is saying, like, think about when you first met, think about the conversations you had about having a family together. What was that shared vision? Because even though every now and again you'll meet people where like one person was super ambivalent and the other person really wanted children and some
Somehow they found their way on the same page. I would say, in general, most people, most, at all, most people start this marriage journey, this relationship journey relatively on the same page. And so I think that when we find ourselves on completely different pages, it's often because we've gotten so mired in the weeds and the details. And that at least trying on, just like you said, try this out. If it works, fantastic. If not, then find something else. But just trying on, zooming out, remembering what it
it
was like in the beginning, you know, thinking about, okay, maybe that initial vision of four to five children is not feasible right now, but but but how can we stay true to the fact that we've always wanted to be parents together? And and that is so beautiful to do, to say, okay, let's zoom out, let's, let's look at what unites us rather than what divides us and see if that can g guide some of our decisions moving forward.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:07:58)
Yeah, and what you do in the context of supporting couples with fertility, I do in the context of supporting couples with having more nourishing, joy-filled, intimate relationships. And so often when I when I do private coaching in the first session with a couple, I will ask each of them
what had you fall in love with your spouse and what had you fall in love with your spouse. And I always find it so special because first of all, just that conversation shifts the energy. And there's always a balance of something that was familiar, like they you know, they could have answered for one another, and some aspect that they didn't realize. It just hasn't come up in years. And it just yes, it brings
some delight and when we are having troubles, challenges in marriage, challenges with fertility, it is normal how mam you know, how human brains function that we are disproportionately focused on what is unsatisfying, what doesn't feel safe, what doesn't feel resolved,
Erica Bove, MD (1:09:16)
Mm-hmm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:09:16)
what feels uncertain, and a whole fertility journey.
Is just immensely benefited in terms of identity, relationship with oneself, interactions and relationship with the partner, as well as just stress hormones and so forth, it all really benefits by remembering what's wonderful in your partner and between the two of you. And there's always something.
If nothing else, he got up and made the bed, you know, or if he didn't, he he he got up and went to work. It is great you have a responsible guy. There, they're just, or maybe they're more tender or more personal things that you might think of, but either way, to both bring your attention to it and
actually express it and I will add one more thing that it's subtle and also significant. And that is that so often our partners feel appreciated. Well, as long as we're expressing appreciation, our partners feel appreciated for what they do and way less often for who they are. And so
If you want to take action and implement what we're talking about at you know at the tail end here, I encourage you to mix up the kinds of comments and appreciations that you express to your partner. So yes,
Erica Bove, MD (1:11:06)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:11:07)
thank you for taking out the trash and I really love that you got my car washed. And also, it just feels so good to be around you and
Erica Bove, MD (1:11:18)
Mm.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:11:18)
I really
appreciate how courageous you are, or whatever it is. In other words, acknowledge states of being as
Erica Bove, MD (1:11:27)
Yes.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:11:28)
well as accomplishments and tasks done. When my husband turned can't remember right now if it was fifty or fifty-five. Anyway, whenever he had a big birthday, I wrote out that number of gratitudes in a very lengthy
Erica Bove, MD (1:11:44)
wow. That's so cool.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:11:46)
card, but I made sure
To mix and match some gratitude for things he does and some gratitude for how he is. And I think that even though we've covered so many things, that is a really good takeaway to implement as you listen and want to deepen connection, no matter where you are in the context of your relationship.
Erica Bove, MD (1:12:19)
Wow. I am truly humbled by this conversation. I cannot wait to listen to it again. I cannot wait to share it with my people.
Just so many kernels of wisdom that I know many, I mean I'm learning many of them were were hard earned by you, Alexandra. And so I'm so grateful that you have this wisdom, that you are continuing to be on the path and that you are spending your life sharing this with the people who need it the most. And so is there anything else you feel needs to be said to make this complete? Or do you feel obviously we need to know where to find you, but is there anything else on your mind or your heart pertaining to this conversation?
Today.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:13:00)
No, you're so gracious and I feel like today's conversation in the first one is more than a primer. So
Erica Bove, MD (1:13:07)
Yeah.
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:13:08)
I just wanna reiterate that having a fantastic relationship is a learnable skill. So pick a skill, pick a way of being that we've talked about and make it your own.
Erica Bove, MD (1:13:23)
Beautiful. well thank you again so much for being on the podcast. Again, where can people find you?
Alexandra Stockwell, MD (1:13:31)
My website is alexandrastockwell dot com and that really is the portal to my book and my own podcast, the Intimate Marriage Podcast, my courses, my coaching, my app, just anything that you might want in the way of going deeper, you can find that at alexandrastockwell.com.
Erica Bove, MD (1:13:54)
Beautiful. thank you again and this will be the gift that keeps on giving. Until the next time. Yes. And to my loves. You know how much I love you. Bye.
